wiscalatus
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Perhaps one day, that may be possible, but for now we must deal with the immigration issue.Let's say we open the borders to the whole world, then what will stop millions of people from the developing world coming to the EU/UK?Most of these people will just come here for the jobs and money, and probably haven't the first clue about socialism.So how will that remotely benefit the working class here?
Young Master Smeet wrote:Well, if you use immigration controls to raise wages in one area, the number of available workers doesn't change, so yopu'll just be condemning workers in 'the oterh country' to poverty. the point is that solidarity against the employers is in the inetrest of workers as workers, and the fault lies with the employers fair and square so we should have no truck with punishing or excluding our fellows.Can't we just have the workers moving freely from one socialist state to another, but keep the outsiders out, so as to disempower the bosses? Agreed, the fault lies with the employers, but why play into their hands.The machinery of the state, infrastructure etc must all be nationalised.That's my view anyhow – so where does this fit in, what kind of political animal am I? cheers
LBird wrote:What 'allows' it is two things:1. the market;2. if we accept the 'market' as a given, then our failure to compel employers to pay immigrants the same wages and conditions.By 'socialist', do you mean someone who wants to remove the market and replace it with free access communism? That's the 'current socialist thinking', here.If not, you need to clarify your meaning of 'socialist', comrade.What the heck is 'free access' communism?But as to your point number 2, why should we accept the market as a given?The supposedly 'free market' is what needs to be smashed as this is what gives employers their unequal power.
alanjjohnstone wrote:If unable to lower wages , the capitalist will out-source work, or if wages still remain high, introduce labour-saving technology. He will also de-skill whereever he can.Work was already being outsourced way before the new immigrants arrived (from EU).Labour saving tech already introduced eons back.How do you mean the employer will 'de-skill'?
Young Master Smeet wrote:Well, it's not immigrants or immigation that lowers wages: it's employers. As socialists we stand in solidarity with our fellow workers, without distinction of nation, race or sex, and see the successful resolution of the class struggle as the only way to address the poverty our class suffers. We can't let the employers divide us and play us off one against the other. If we organise in unions, and politically, we can fight back.Well, isn't this just the same thing though?Employers set low wages and poor conditions BECAUSE the mass immigration allows them to do so.Restrict immigration to reasonable levels and wages will be forced up, due to the under-supply of workers.Surely that would be a good thing?
