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Does the Socialist Party (England and Wales) have different views on immigration to the SPGB?Hard to get a definintve answer from the SPEW on this one.Thanks

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Glad I have some agreement at last!And yes,  I'm sure marriage will wither away, I think it already is.

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So that is your way of having a 'political discussion'?? Head in the sand more-like!

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jondwhite wrote:

What's to stop feudalism coming back? Society doesn't move to more primitive forms of production systems. Thousands and millions of class conscious workers who have overthrown capitalism would not suffer warlords or gangsters. Sorry if that sounds determinist.

 I'm certain that feudalism would come back, given a total lack of regulation, much like a monpoly game turns into a monopoly.Human nature is inherently selfish, so this trait will re-assert without government regulation and control. 

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DJP wrote:

Democratic control of the means of production means no private property. (This doen't mean no belongings) No private property means everyone has free access to the goods society produces. With society set up in such a fashion what is the need for warlords, nations and gangs?

 How about just good old fashioned human nature, of the base sort?Men always seem to want to dominate others, whether they have a large amount of property or not.

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Thanks for the info.So if you are opposed to all forms of public ownership, then what do you propese for infrastructure projects, the NHS and the police/military??

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LBird wrote:

The method I suggest is:1. off your own back, start to question capitalism;2. come here and ask questions;3. read answers, and respond to them by developing your argument (either by agreeing with those answers, or rejecting them with reasons).Unfortunately, ignoring what's being said in reply to your questions, and merely re-iterating right wing myths, will lead to accusations that you are trolling.

 1. Done that already2. That is what I am doing, but getting few answers!3. Doing that if you hadn't noticed.

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alanjjohnstone wrote:

There is no solution within capitalism for the tendency of it to cut pay, but one counter measure to lessen the effect is industrial organisation of the working class.  Recruit the new arrivals, defend them and demand equal rights and benefits. It takes time but again to look back at history, it was the only successful way of countering capitalism divide and rule tactics. It's an old story, constantly used, only difference is those it happens to be aimed at…the Chinese and Japanese "coolies"of the 19th C , the Irish and the Eastern European Jew, the South Asians of India and Pakistan, the Mexicans…the Poles…same old story, same old lies re-told. Keep us at one another's throats and the rich are laughing all the way to their bailed-out bank.

 Sounds like the 'Diversity Illusion' to me.New arrivals generally do not come for purposes of solidarity, rather, they come to earn money for their families etc.Now, why would UK taxpayers be so willing to support these people if they are out of work, and why would a native working class local be so prepared to fight for the newcomer's rights, when they do not share a common history or culture?This just leads to an 'everyone for themselves, or at least 'everyone for their own in-group' mentality'  – a system perfect for dividing the working class (as you have already mentioned), and the breeding of conservatism.This is playing straight into the hands of the capitalist bosses!

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alanjjohnstone wrote:

You mentioned zero hour contract and i will add part time and temporary casual work as other means of controlling wages, none of which was instigated by migrant workers. Do you accuse two part-timers of stealing your job? The solution is to defend full time jobs, not demand  dismissals of part-timers. You seem to wish to blame the victim. Countries that are suffering from the effects of global capitalism provide what Marx calls the reserve army of the unemployed.  They suffer the worse working conditions in the worse of jobs with the worse  protection and despite the propaganda are denied many of the welfare benefits of native workers. 

I'm not blaming the immigrant at all, and agree with you here that it is the fault of the system.But the system which allows unchecked mass immigration causes detriment to the native worker, without a doubt.No one has yet answered my other questions: namely – why is there so much more unemployment now, and why should I now be out of work because someone else is prepared to do it for one third of the wage? 2 part time jobs is the same as one full time job, so no, I would not demand the dismissal of those PT workers.But adding and extra 2 workers to the equation is not the same, and this is what is happening with mass immigration of unskilled workers. 

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alanjjohnstone wrote:

 Certain retailers seek out older retired workers as do some fast food companies younger workers since these people have less dependents and therefore will accept less remuneration. They are also more compliant and flexible

 First off, older workers and youth are protected by min wage laws – so where do you get the 'less renumeration' idea?'More compliant and flexible' does hit the nail on the head though, and that is exactly the benefit that the new immigrant gives to the boss.Far easier to control and fire an immigrant because he has a far weaker support base, is likely to be more desperate for funds, and is ultimately way more exploitable.This clearly puts the local worker at a disadvantage and he must accept the race to the bottom or end up jobless and homeless.Hardly a great situation for the native worker or immigtant, yet a day in the sun for the capitalist! 

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so how can this happen?No leadership but all the world united.What is to stop rogue elements, warlords, nations , gangs etc.. from just doing whatever they see fit?

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LBird wrote:

wiscalatus, I think that you're a troll.You've stopped discussing with us, and developing your argument from the new information that you've been given, and are now merely repeating right-wing myths.You're still mentioning 'money', when you've already been put straight on that. No money. No nations, host or otherwise.As for 'immigrants' not having a clue about socialism, those who live in glass houses…

 Not a troll at all, just wanting some answers, perhaps I need the 'right wing myths' debunking.Can you do that? 

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next questions:Unemployment has increased over the last decade, so how has immigration helped here?I used to easily get work, building,plumbing,call centres etc.. now – no chance! How has that benefitted me or those in a similar situation?Zero hours – easy for the bosses to dicatate now as there are so many people available for work, so how does that help the worker?

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alanjjohnstone wrote:

So do you suggest that women , young single people, senior citizens, rural to urban migration, city to city migration,  be ended for all these have also been means of cutting wages.  

 If they are from the UK originally then they are not adding an additional supply of workers.

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How can 1 million, unskilled, and penniless immigrants benefit the host nation?And for those that do earn wages, much of that money is sent back to their own countries.How does that benefit the host nation?

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