Wez
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“Much too harsh, TS. The SPGB is engaging in the same abstract propaganda which they’ve been undertaking for 118 years. Please give credit where it’s due. 🙂”
Lizzie45 – I can’t see how your continual sniping contributes to the debate? You seem to be content to remain on your knees begging for more crumbs from your betters. If that’s how you wish to spend your life that’s your choice but it is not ours. You’ve said the begging is the only game in town so why bother with this forum – get back to your: ‘Please sir, I want some more’ strategy.TS is such a throwback to the ’70s and ’80s – an equal mixture of ignorance and arrogance. He’s the kind of egotistical vanguardist that put a whole generation of the working class off politics. Such anger and intolerance is always a sign of insecurity. Thankfully his breed are dying out but it’s good to be reminded of how correct we were in opposing everything he stands for. As I’ve said, the main point of discussing anything with him is to confirm to any reader of this forum the reasons why we oppose the left. I must admit to laughing out loud at his contention of his knowledge of ‘the truth’. Anyway I’m done with this parody of an individual but I’ll leave him with a disconcerting thought – I’m just as surprised as he is that Russia seem to be losing this war!
Is it a coincidence that all of the ‘independent’ journalists cited by TS agree with his perspective on the Ukrainian conflict? Can he name one independent journalist who does not share his ideological bias? Just utter nonsense as usual. Having reread some of our past articles concerning the fall of the Russian Empire they all seem to agree on its inevitability and that the world has moved on – except for a tiny minority within the left, like TS, who like to live in the past.
Two points of interest – is it the Party case that the old Russian empire was ‘betrayed’ by its elite contrary to the wishes of its people? I had always thought that the relatively peaceful transition to the traditional ‘bourgeois’ rule was due to the widespread contempt for the ruling ‘nomenklatura’ and their lies by the people? Not that it really matters since what was important was that the oppressive Russian empire was destroyed. I’m surprised that a comrade on here referred to it as the ‘Soviet Union’ as I thought that the Bolsheviks had destroyed all the soviets decades before?
There’s a lot of debate about ‘sources’ of information in this discussion. As far as I’m aware there are no independent journalists covering the conflict. The only news we get is either from ’embedded’ journalists (who can only report what the military allows them to see) and a bunch of reporters huddled in a hotel bar in Kiev spouting whatever the pentagon wants them to say. I’m sure it’s the same on the Russian side. As ever it will be up to historians to try and sort out the ‘truth’ after it is all over – what we can be sure of is that the lies will be coming from both sides.
TM – Such a question belongs on a different thread. I’m not a romantic when it comes to nature and there are probably species that we could do without (parasitic worms, certain viruses and bacteria etc.) but, as I say, that’s for another thread.
pgb – ‘sharing a sense of belonging to the place where he lives,’
Of course we feel that sense but not to arbitrary tribal areas but to the planet as a whole! Ever since we saw our tiny blue jewel of a planet hanging in the immensity of black nothingness from the perspective of the moon many realized that tribalism and the ruling class’s manipulation and perversion of communal feelings was destroying it. Socialists have always known this but those images from space are a startling reminder of how tiny, delicate and alone humanity is.
The Russian people overwhelmingly ditched Bolshevism and it’s time TS did as well – it was an historical dead-end. Incidentally in all my 60+ years I can truly say that I have never read the Guardian.
‘You are just wasting your time’
MS – We may be wasting our time with TrueScotsman but someone reading the debate who might hold similar views may be persuaded by our arguments. As for the anachronistic use of the designations fascist and nazi some have attempted to, along with bolshevism, put them all together under the concept of ‘totalitarianism’. It would be foolish to deny that they have much in common such as curtailing freedoms to guarantee them, worship of a charismatic leader, militarism, love of authority, xenophobia etc. Call it what you like: fascism, nazism, totalitarianism, nationalism or just decadent capitalism the truth is that they are all dependent on irrational ideologies. Of course we need to put such movements in their historical context but that doesn’t stop their continual reappearance which implies such impulses, like religion, are deep seated in all private property societies and constitute a profound psychological barrier to socialism which needs to be confronted.
“And the Bolshevik states were also fascist, no less fascist than Germany, Italy and Spain.”
[Moderator deleted offensive quote from True Scotsman]
TS – No similarities then? Bolshevik authoritarianism, militarism, imperialism, leader cult, hatred of democracy, state dominance in every sphere of life both private and public, nationalism, ruling elites, wage slavery, continual sloganizing propaganda, racism, no free speech or press, politicized courts, concentration camps (gulags), etc. etc. I suppose if you were ever to open your eyes to historical and political reality rather than ideological slogans your whole world would disappear into ashes.
MS – Having made a lifetime study of the works of Marx and Freud together with that of the Frankfurt school I would have to profoundly disagree with you. Remember that the term ‘pseudoscience’ is also used by the reactionary element within the ‘scientific community’ to describe Marxism and any other theory that they dislike ideologically.
Just to add that not all of us consider Freud’s work to have been ‘debunked’. For me his theories give the only possible explanation for irrational reactionary ideology. When combined with a Marxian perspective they can be very productive as in the work of the Frankfurt school. Of course there are some elements that are mistaken but, as with Marx, we don’t discard the entirety of his work because of the mistakes he made.
We haven’t mentioned the development of the ‘industrial military complex’ where the state is in control of vast amounts of capital that employs millions of workers. Would it be true to say that within some states (the US?) the whole economy is dependent on military income and expenditure? I believe the armaments trade is very lucrative for the capitalists in this and many other countries? Could capitalist economy work at all without war and preparing for war?
‘Actually I don’t, but millions do and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.’
Lizzie45 – Well yes you do because you think ‘millions’ do. The irony is that many among your millions make exactly the same claim – I would support socialism but that would be a waste of my time because the vast majority will never support it. It’s a self fulfilling prophesy. In fact I never buy this excuse because it’s plain that those who use it are just projecting their own misconceptions, doubts and insecurities onto the ‘millions’ of others – it’s merely a way of not taking responsibility for the consequences of your political actions.
