Wez
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I wonder what Carl Sagan’s politics were? Having read the above article I’d guess that he was a romantic leftist liberal of some kind – which would seem to justify our suspicion of those who speak of ‘spirituality’.
‘And yet, Wez, we will cease to be humans in less than a split-second of cosmic time, and the species will have ceased to be, forever.’
TM – Again, like size, I don’t see why brevity should diminish significance. Time is one of the most mysterious of phenomena. Having existed as a species might mean that we will always exist. I think the physicist you mention above has produced a video entitled ‘Does the past still exist?’ I haven’t watched it yet but perhaps she can add something to the time paradox?‘As far as love is concerned, suffice to say that to experience it is more than sufficient.’
Lizzie would seem to be unaware that cultural conditioning has a profound effect on how we ‘experience’ and interpret the world (as explored in some depth above). The cultural evolution of ‘romantic love’ is well understood from its medieval aristocratic origins (chivalry etc.) through to the remnants of Romanticism within cheesy movies and novels of today. We can only ‘experience’ what our culture has created for us.TM – But as life and the consciousness it can enable seems to be so rare we are damned ‘significant’.
‘I not only pick up plenty of books, Andrew, I read them too, both in ‘Austro-Bavarian’ and English. But as a scientist (with a specific interest in Astrophysics) I tend to steer clear of fictitious prose.’
Blimey, ‘Austro-Bavarian’ eh, no wonder you can’t articulate what love is. How sad.
‘Of course nobody can explain what awe is or what it feels like to experience it anymore than one can explain what it feels like to be in love which presumably you haven’t experienced either. How sad.’
But that’s all artists, poets and romantic novelists attempt to do ad nauseam. Perhaps you should pick up a book occasionally Lizzie.
I think ALB is correct – like so many romantics TM has simply substituted the cosmos for God. John Carpenter’s ‘Dark Star’ gives us a comedic perspective on space where the crew of a spaceship are driven mad by the tedious nothingness that is space. For ‘something’ to exist we need the concept of ‘nothing’ to render it comprehensible. When I close my hand within the earth’s atmosphere of course I’m aware (intellectually) of the existence of particles and atoms – not to mention gravity and air pressure but when I close my hand in outer space there is literally nothing there except the occasional passing photon or neutrino. I’m rather surprised by just how disingenuous that remark is.
‘I’m terrified instead by human actions.’
If the concept of an infinite void doesn’t scare you a little then you’re very unusual. Of course you’re right to be terrified of some human actions but there are also examples of heroism, self-sacrifice, incredible intelligence and creativity – one shouldn’t ‘throw the baby out with the bath water.’‘To say it is our role to bring self-consciousness to the universe is, therefore, arrogant and ludicrous.’
I’m not saying that at all. I’m just using your own logic – we are part of the universe and we are conscious of it. As you say there may be many other examples of the cosmos becoming conscious of itself and we are one of those examples. You say we should feel ‘awe’ but it is equally appropriate to feel lost within an immensity of nothing. Cold dark space provokes nothing in me but fear and loneliness. This tiny blue dot within the infinite may be the only example for billions of light years of the evolution of consciousness and I think this deserves the awe of which you speak not the lifeless void of space dotted with equally dead rocky planets.TM – why do you continually speak of our ‘smallness’? Small is good, microchips are quite impressive wouldn’t you say? Indeed you could say that inner-space is as infinitesimal as outer-space is huge. Size is not relevant here. We are part of the universe and we are good at abstract thought which brought about science which, by your own logic, must be an example of the universe becoming conscious of itself. The term ‘proper humility’ sounds very Christian to me.
“the universe becoming conscious of itself through our agency.”
What human supremacist arrogance!
We are a tiny microscopic blip in one planet’s evolution
TM – I don’t know why you would say that! I didn’t exclude the possibility that this might have also happened on other planets but the chances of contact with them seem remote. As you say, we are part of the cosmos so our role might be to become conscious of ‘the cosmos’. I don’t see anything ‘supremist’ or even remotely arrogant about that. To me science seems to represent the universe becoming conscious of itself and scientists are human!TM – I’ve always thought of the process as one of the universe becoming conscious of itself through our agency. Like all dialecticians I’m not overly fond of separating intellectual (scientific if you will) disciplines into discrete boxes. To completely understand anything is to understand everything in terms of dialectics but as the intellect could never sustain such information we categorize but always remembering that the universe is holistic.
‘How am I paying off any interest, Andrew? I’m not in employment so I’m not producing what you’d choose to call surplus value. The only regular outgoings I have, other than sustenance, are utility bills, transport costs and £32 Council Tax each month – money left over is mine to spend entirely as I please.’
Lizzie45- All of the costs you mention will rise to finance the debt. The NHS will suffer further cuts, infrastructure will deteriorate even more. I could continue but I think even you must know the consequences of government debt.
‘your pipe dream’
Lizzie45 – so all these emergency payments are proof that 100 years of reformism have been a success? That’s the real delusion – governments have borrowed from the 1% and you and I (and our children and grandchildren) will be paying off the interest on that for ever and a day – let alone the full amount. Your ‘pipe dream’ has turned into a nightmare of eternal debt.
