TrueScotsman
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“your statistic on approval of China’s central government also found that approval of local government was only 11%.”
11% is those who were “very satisfied”. The study doesn’t mention how many were merely “satisfied”, “neutral”, etc. But if you’d bothered to read the study yourself you’ll find an explanation for those attitudes.
“But please indulge my curiosity, True Scotsman, and answer which parties and organisations that you approve of that I should view as my comrades and enlist in? Simple enough request, isn’t it, since you urge us to do so.”
How should I know? I live in bloody Japan! To be honest, I think your heart is in the right place. I used to be an anarchist. Then after exhaustive research I pieced together that everything I’d been told about Stalin/Mao the USSR and China were lies. They were and are the real deal. So I get it. But you’re not doing yourselves any favors. My advice, quit being the meme of the sectarian left and work with all socialists/communists and any other leftists in a coalition. Broaden your appeal, tone down the sectarianism and recruit more comrades because we all know this shit show can’t go on much longer.
Clearly what you’ve been doing isn’t working. People don’t like to be quoted at, they want to engage in discussions that give them hope and rouse them to action. Your constant condemnation of all and sundry wins no one but enemies. China has 90 million communists. Have you ever met one? Have you debated theory with them? Have you worked out areas of commonality? My bet is you haven’t. As long as you remain a holier than though leftist cult you’ll wither away as surely as Marx’s envisioned socialist state.
“But you believe the Chinese oligarchs and the state bureaucrats actually are all altruists because of some sort of spiritual and moral quality, not possessed by Western industrialists, if I recall another of your inferences from some post or other.”
The Chinese government is the most competent government on Earth. It has a 96 per cent approval rating. Most of the top leadership are scientists/ engineers and horror of horrors…dedicated communists. Your pathetic little 2-minute hate group could learn quite a lot from them.
“And if you read a little bit deeper, we say we will not be led by anyone, bourgeois or proletarian, charlatan or sincere.”
Right, no leaders. How’s that been working out for you? What’s the view like from the edge of oblivion?
“As Eugene Debs said, if you let someone lead you into the promised land, you will permit another to so easily lead you out again”
You do know he ran for President, right? You are funny.
“For decades in their lives, Marx and Engels had only a few close correspondents sharing their socialist ideas. No mass socialist party.”
What cognitive dissonance you display. Engels was a member of the bourgeoisie! How dare you mention his name! Scoundrel! Heretic!
“Have you read the Gotha Program written by Marx ? Have you heard about the First and the Second International ?”
Have you heard of the infantile disorder of left-wing communism? No wonder you so hate Lenin. His words cut too close to the bone.
“Such an insignificant organisation that True Scotsman has a need to return”
You are completely insignificant but I’ve got some free time and nothing much better to do, plus, I’ve been hounded by your replies to my posts the last few days.
“this time to cite the rags to riches narrative so popular with the wealthy class yet he doesn’t recognise the irony that he promotes the rise of a new ruling class.”
You really are confused. One minute you say “we will never be led by the bourgeoisie” the next “we will never be led by the proletarian”. Space aliens then? You’re a joke.
“What is the point in countering your assertions with my own?
You simply refer to the sources such as the China Labor Bulletin as biased Washington puppets
https://clb.org.hk/And if I use the China Worker website, I am resorting to sectarian Trotskyists”
Exactly. Don’t refer to Washington think tankers or Trotskyist cultists and I’ll take you slightly more seriously.
“Whereas your own authority in the Chinese state is unimpeachable.”
I said no such thing. Instead of poorly employing rhetorical tricks try challenging my ideas.
“As you now acknowledge”
As opposed to when I didn’t acknowledge the fact? Which was…when exactly?
“China is little different from any other capitalist country in the world. ”
Demonstrably false. How many “capitalist” countries deliberately move to wipe $3 trillion worth of value from their largest companies? Your understanding of capitalist countries is deeply flawed, comrade.
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/09/01/investing/china-investment-tech-crackdown-mic-intl-hnk/index.html
“But you choose to defend it when its corporations operating in Africa has been guilty of anti-worker practices”
So throw the baby out with the bath water? A few instances of bad practice means only bad practice? Ignore reality all you like while pushing US and EU narratives about Chinese debt traps. It’s all garbage. I’ve got the links to prove it but you’re not interested in the truth. You can’t reason someone out of a position they haven’t reasoned themselves into.
“As for “building socialism”, there is very little sign of that. Certainly no more so than any other nation on earth.”
There are plenty of signs of that but you wear your obscurantist ideology like a blindfold and will never see.
“I have heard this argument that because we remain committed to the traditional understanding of socialism, one that even pre-dates Marx, and promote it as the accurate interpretation, we are somehow committing the true Scotsman fallacy.”
You are the madman screaming at the wall who thinks everyone else is crazy but themself. Have you never asked why it is that none but a handful of the similarly deluded have embraced your quixotic quest? Does it make you feel morally superior that you alone are the keepers of the flame of socialist “truth”. Would Marx be proud that you’ve achieved absolutely nothing through a lifetime of alienating fellow socialists? What a joke.
“We said the Russian Revolution would fail to accomplish its aims.”
And you were proved wrong for it did achieve its aims. It built a workers’ state, however briefly, that smashed the combined might of capitalist/fascist reaction, ended famine, electrified the country, eliminated illiteracy, provided free healthcare, culture and housing, guaranteed work and on and on. But tell me, what has your failing little sect ever achieved? This will be funny…
“Shall I suggest that 1 billion Hindus are correct? 1 billion Muslims? 1 billion Catholics? The 60 million Americans who voted for Trump or the 80 million that voted for the lesser evil Biden…do you see where I am going.”
Actually, I don’t know where you’re going. Spell it out.
“For decades in their lives, Marx and Engels had only a few close correspondents sharing their socialist ideas. No mass socialist party.
Numbers mean nothing when it comes to ideas. You are appealing to might is right.”
And that is why you will remain an irrelevant footnote in the history of socialism. Because you don’t have the wherewithal to join forces with seriously commited comrades and seize power. You’d much rather tilt at windmills.
“these “enlightened” visitors who rely upon the Illuminati internet as the interpretation of their “ideas”.”
Illuminati? You are funny. The cultist is throwing sticks and stones. Lucky for me your group is so splintered by crazed sectarianism that a pair of tweezers should suffice to treat any injury sustained.
“In this forum we have also challenged white nationalists, black nationalist, Trumpist and Neo Nazis and they have left when they see that their ideas can not challenge ours ideas”
I left because your ideas are insufferable. No-one likes zealots. Your Plato’s forms version of socialism is laughable. You have no comrades to speak of because of this therefore no power thus condemning yourselves to oblivion. Marx would be so proud of you all.
“Bloody cheek. We have kept the original idea of socialism alive, while the left, ‘professional revolutionary’ types, distorted it in fruitless attempts, to win power to govern over the proletariat…”freed from above by philanthropic big bourgeois and petty bourgeois”
You just won’t quit bothering me. Fine, let’s reengage. “Fruitless”? At one point half the world’s population was living under socialist rule. Without power your words are nothing but naval gazing. Here’s another Marx quote, “The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it.” What change has your cadre of pure driven snow-flakes brought to the world? Britain is a basket case. You lot do nothing but throw stones at those who do the actual work of realising socialist change. Shame on you all. Oh. and by the way, Ho Chi-Minh was a cook while Stalin was raised by a single mother. Yet you hate both of them too. Your hypocrisy stinks like the decomposing corpses of the 1.8 billion Indians your ancestors condemned to death through British rule of the sub-continent.
I clearly don’t have a home here. You people aren’t socialists you’re cosplayers. I’m not gonna waste one second more on this site. Enjoy your obscurity. Sayonara from a comrade in Japan!
“The apologists of Chinese state capitalism (you included) look frighteningly similar to the apologists of Stalinism”
I’m no Stalin apologist because there’s nothing to apologise for. Unlike the obscurantist esoterics who appear to populate this site, he was the actual real deal. A communist who won state power, developed his country from feudal backwater to global super power, shredded the fascist scum of Europe and made the world’s capitalist class quake in its boots. And you fault the man for that? Funny kind of socialists you lot are here.
“the same familiar policy of exploiting the workers”
Sure, eliminating illiteracy and famine, doubling life expectancy, guaranteeing the right to work, culture and housing is such exploitation! Some people just talk, others act. I think I know what camp you belong to.
“Tibet by invasion would be an example of China’s expansionism.”
You mean the Tibet that was a part of the Middle Kingdom (Zhongguo/China) since 1264? Or the Tibet that was carved off from the Middle Kingdom by an illegal treaty forced on China by Great Britain? You know, the one where the Mandarins were held at gunpoint? Or was your comment directed to the Tibetan peasants who were held in indentured slavery, worse than Europes’, by the Dalai Lhama? The same Dalai Lhama who “possessed 27 manors, 30 pastures and more than 6,000 serfs.”
http://www.bjreview.com/Tibet_in_50_Years/2009-03/05/content_182622.htm
http://dalailama.factsreveal.org/dalai-lama-owned-6000-serfs
Are you aware that Tibet and China had been engaging in Royal weddings for a couple of thousand years? Probably not. So you’ve learned something today.
“The Chinese loans and business investment have propped up many African dictators.”
The Chinese build infrastructure which brings development. It does not install dictators, engineer coups, demand structural adjustment programs or invade.
“It has been engaged in a number of missions across the continent, with troop contributions to peacekeeping operations in Sudan, South Sudan, Liberia, Mali and the Democratic Republic of Congo.”
And what is your specific objection to those operations?
“It has also contributed millions of dollars of equipment to the African Union, And a military base was opened in Djibouti.”
Yes, its one and only foreign military base. What an expansionist Empire China is, no?
“It is not philanthropy. It is the same old scramble for Africa for geo-politics, only difference is China is the new boy on the block.”
No, you are confused because you project your western biases and prejudices upon a culture that is alien to you. You have no conception that the Chinese behave in a completely different manner to your imperialist US and EU brethren. I imagine you to be the woman asking the question in the following video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03l3Ra4bL_A
“Many smaller nations SE Asian countries seek the rights to the resources in the South China Sea. Unable to stand up to the potential power of China, they seek the aid of the USA who are only too happy to oblige for their own mercenary purposes.”
The South China Sea is contested territory. There is a dispute resolution mechanism in place through ASEAN. did you know that?
https://www.chinausfocus.com/peace-security/south-china-sea-disputes-the-asean-draws-the-line
“One country, in particular, Vietnam, may well recall actual Chinese aggression and its invasion after it had expelled the Americans. Another example of China’s expansionist policy, you have ignored.”
Expansionist? Do you know anything about the war whatsoever? It was over in two weeks with China fully withdrawing from all Vietnamese territory. Funny kind of “expansionism” that. But then what would you care anyway? I’m sure you hate “state capitalist” Vietnam as much as you hate “state capitalist” China. Is there any socialism anywhere you actually approve of? LOL
“There are several articles on China state capitalism written by this ex-Maoist, ex Stalinists group”
In other words, not socialists. Nuff said.
“I wonder who it was that installed Pol Pot?”
And Pol Pot rules Cambodia today does he? My question, unanswered was, “Name one dictator on earth today installed by China.” So, I ask it again. Name one.
“Or perhaps we should look at Kim Jong-Un”
He wasn’t installed by China either. He was installed by the people of the DPRK. So, you got nothing by the sounds of it.
“Yes, the Chinese “Communist Party” is clearly a great friend to the oppressed workers of North Korea, no self interested foriegn policy there.”
I dunno, life doesn’t look so bad in DPRK, (the county’s actual name). And how are workers more “oppressed” in DPRK than anywhere else? Looks kind of normal to me. No doubt they’d be an extremely successful civilisation were not the US empire attempting to throttle them out of existence.
“(just a note of clarification I am being ironic, just that your use of the spelling color indicates that you are probably not a Scot and maybe even from the good old USA, so you may be unfamiliar with my use of irony)”
Irony is the unexpected. How is a Trot hating actual socialists unexpected? It’s all you people do. Hate on actually existing socialist nations and their people. I chose the name for its meaning as a logical fallacy. You Trots really are the no true Scotsmen of socialism. Not even the driven snow is pure enough to satisfy you lot.
