TrueScotsman
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It was the Europeans, principally the UK, France and Poland that were trying to encourage Germany and the USSR to fight it out against one another. The Soviets were aware of this and signed the non-aggression pact so that those powers would have to join the fight the Soviets knew was coming. The USSR was the last country in Europe to do so. Previous to this the USSR attempted to form a collective security arrangement in the League of Nations to prevent fascist aggression but, as all the other attempts made by the Soviets to avoid war, it was rejected. As was the Soviets proposal to station a million man army on the Polish/German border to prevent Nazi expansion. The Soviets did not invade Poland. They entered former Polish territory, (actually former Soviet territory stolen in the war of 1921), after the Polish government fled to captivity in Romania. By doing so the Soviets prevented Hitler from annexing the entire country and planting itself on the Soviet border. The song is historically inaccurate and therefore not funny.
“Why did Furr pass me by? Perhaps Wiki offers the reason why he has never appeared on my radar and why I won’t waste my time with him.”
Living in the dark is so much easier on the eyes, is it not? Of course, you end up blind in the process. A fitting analogy me thinks.
Hehe, you use Wikipedia as a source? It’s infested with intelligence agents and a tool of the billionaire class. You should be embarrassed.
Wikipedia formally censors The Grayzone as regime-change advocates monopolize editing
“our answer is that socialism, as we conceive of it, has never been tried.”
You need to take power in order to implement your program. 100 years of slinging mud and naval gazing and still nothing accomplished. What use to the world is a hot air club? We have enough of that already.
“Has the socialist ideal come closer to being accomplished with the success of the 1917 and 1949 revolutions?”
Absolutely it has. China has continued to carry the torch lit by Lenin and Stalin with the creation of the first workers’ state. Something you and your fellow chainsaws will only ever dream of.
“Yet it is the same exact argument the proponents of capitalism have made.”
Capitalists were forced to improve their workers’ lives because of the existence of the USSR and other socialist states. With the betrayal of the USSR by a handful of unscrupulous rightists the capitalist societies breathed a collective sigh of relief and have been busy dismantling all the progress made in the 20th Century. China, on the other hand, is constantly improving its peoples’ standard of living rather than eroding it.
“the fundamental situation is not addressed, which is the ownership of the means of production by a small minority.”
All peasants in China own their own land. Home ownership is around 90%. 30% of the country’s assets are publicly owned. The Gini coefficient will be as low as Finland’s in 2050 and the country fully communist by 2121.
“at the present time the Vietcong is the best ally of the USA, and they have served the workers in a silver platter to the Western capitalist:
You are misinformed. It sounds like you need some educating. This channel is a good place to start.
“They’re actual socialists, by the way, not play actors”
How can we rate your political credibility after you have stated the above, TS?
I was mistaken. I make mistakes all the time. At least one a day. So what? I’m merely a worker who reads looking for an organisation that is honest about history, doesn’t parrot US state department talking points and is interested in liberation. In my humble opinion the JCP and your own organisation do not live up to such standards.
“It took me a few minutes of investigation to determine that the JCP does not represent your case. (actually, I too was surprised by their critiques)”
And it sounds like you have much in common. An entirely flawed analysis of Soviet history and global politics.
“I appreciate your retraction, however.”
It hasn’t been the first and won’t be the last.
“And your willingness to continue your conversation with ourselves.”
I enjoy such discussions. It helps clarify my own thinking. Though we are at ideological loggerheads I do believe we want the same thing in the end. A society free of oppression and exploitation.
“What really interests me is how the world at large can achieve the goals set out by socialists who adhere to the primary position of the Marxists.
How do we achieve socialism and by which road?”
And that’s why I am leaning toward Marxism/Leninism. The model works. State power was achieved by many such organisations. Without state power no meaningful progress whatsoever can be made. If there wasn’t a looming environmental catastrophe hanging above our heads I might be inclined to favour a slower approach but that doesn’t seem wise given the circumstances.
“Surely you do not still believe that Stalin was on the right path and that Xi’s present road is also the true one for the emancipation of workers from wage slavery?”
I absolutely do think that. Grovver Furr’s writings and my own witnessing of the demonisation of contemporary left wing leaders has convinced me that nothing but lies are fed us about Stalin. Xi has cracked down massively on corruption, has priortised the eradication of poverty, is working hard to reduce China’s Gini coefficient and has the country on path to be communist by 2121. I have no problems with any of that. Why do you?
“You can admire the ability of some nations to lift people out of extreme poverty but still hold that it is not a permanent answer to social inequality and workers’ misery.”
True, but China is working towards communism. The country’s leaders are committed Marxists after all.
“Marx fully understood that capitalism could be progressive. But he also knew it was transitory and had inherent contradictions within it.”
What, and you think the CCP doesn’t know that too?
“Citation needed.
This is an analysis made by a left wing organization in regard to one of the Congress of the Communist Party of China, they call it a Congress of Capitalist”
So no evidence then? Just mewlings.
“Do you still wish to counsel that WSM member in Japan to join the JCP even though it clearly does not support your politics?”
I stand corrected. The views of the JCP are as bad as your own. Your comrade should not join the party.
“However, it does explain my earlier question of why you haven’t joined the JCP.”
I haven’t joined any political organisations in Japan because I don’t speak Japanese.
“And now my bet is that you have never engaged with any member of the JCP.”
You are correct. If your summary of their views is correct then I would have no home with them either.
Human Rights Watch is an arm of the US State Department and Wikipedia entirely untrustworthy in its value judgements about left-wing organisations and figures. If you weren’t already aware of such facts then you lot are even more hopeless than I thought. I merely provided the link because the parties are all listed there in one simple chart.
“We have a member of a companion party in Japan probably he has not found that organization with a large membership and a big incidence within the working class”
Japan has a fairly large Communist Party numbering some 18,000 branches. I suggest he joins a branch. They’re actual socialists, by the way, not play actors.
“If by any chance we have a companion party in China, North Korea, and Cuba all the members are going to be locked down or taken to jail, the same case would have been in the Soviet Union.”
I can not speak to DPRK or Cuba but you most certainly would not be “locked down” or “taken to jail” in China. China has many opposition parties. If you were intellectually curious at all, you’d already know that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_China
As to your claims about the USSR, well, who can say?
“Most of the high level officials are capitalists”
Citation needed.
“The Unified Socialist Party of Venezuela has more than eight millions members, and it is a nationalist party that only advocates for capitalist reforms, and they support the reactionary government of Iran, Siria, North Korea, Vietnam and Cuba, and the so called Arab nationalists, and they reject the real conception of socialism.”
And this is why nobody likes you. You’re a hateful and irrelevant little clique of naval gazers.
“There are 90 million Socialists in China”
“Another lie, one of many it seems.”
“No evidence to back this up and no context?
I could fill in the missing gaps, have stab in the dark?”Well, it’s a good thing I didn’t tell it then, isn’t it? I said there were 90 million communists not socialists.
“In 2019, the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) had about 91.91 million members, making it the second largest political party in the world.”
Care to eat your words now James or would you prefer to do so after lunch?
“Most hardcore Maoists do not support the government of China since the coup to the gang of four what they call the gang of five because it includes Mao Tse Tung. One of the largest Maoist group is RCPUSA”
Lucky for me I’m not a hardcore Maoist then, I guess. I’m just a worker who reads.
“So what you are saying to us is that you have no knowledge of any political party whatsoever that reflects your own personal political position, other than that the Chinese Communist Party meets with your approval.”
I’m sorry that my position displeases you. Does that mean no pudding before bedtime?
“You are telling us is that our new party policy should now be to advocate for political change by promoting the interests of China”
I don’t see how noting the success of the CCP’s program is promoting China’s interests. Please explain.
“as an example of progress and not only endorse it but also emulate it.”
I said no such thing. China’s model cannot be emulated unless your country were to have 1.4 billion people. Only India or perhaps the US could hope to emulate the Chinese way of doing things. What you could do though is stop parroting imperialist and reactionary talking points about China. But from what little I know of your merry band of haters, that’s going to be a bridge too far.
“We should also reject the hundreds and hundreds of analyses of Stalin in our archives, not written in hindsight but contemporary criticism.”
I don’t know. It would depend what they say. But probably, yes.
“And that this will broaden our appeal to ordinary fellow workers and lift us out of obscurity as a sectarian cult.”
No, but it would be a good start. To broaden your appeal you’d need to stop being a meme of left-wing sectarianism.
“Am I getting you right?
If not you can correct me.”
I believe I have done so.
“The social services have been improved substantially to those who previously were deprived of access.”
That is an honest assessment of the findings.
“The word of caution expressed is that this approval is entirely dependant upon economic success.”
That too is true.
“This is crucial for anyone with an understanding of Marxist economics who can explain that economic crises are unavoidable features, regardless of whether free enterprise, mixed economy or centralized command economy.”
2008 and the COVID crisis barely effected China. Explain that.
“True Scotsman may claim China is immune, arguing it is a much more planned economy, but a Marxist would dispute it. The global market in which China is a key-player is subject to the anarchy of production.”
As I understand it China’s economy is transitioning to a services economy which will reduce its dependence on the global market for its prosperity. But it is also building the BRI, a huge trading network with world class infrastructure and largely free of the threat of US imperialist sanction.
“There is no question that China is experiencing a prolonged boom, as did the USA post-WW2, but there are constant signs and signals within the economy of stress.”
You sound like Gordon G. Chang who predicted China would collapse in 2006 then 2011 then 2012 then 2016 then 2017. He’s no doubt saying the same thing about Evergreen. And yet China still hasn’t collapsed. He’s made a good living publishing his prognostications to credulous China-bashers. Perhaps you could do the same?
“We shall wait and see what happens when the balloon inevitably bursts.”
The CCP is highly competent. I’ve no doubt they’ll continue to manage their economy with finesse.
“But as an aside on surveys, can I mention the fact that Finland is constantly top of the happiness league while China is currently at No. 52”
Was Finland as poor as Haiti at the turn of the century? What a feeble attempt at discrediting China. Anyway, as I’ve said, China will have a Gini coefficient equal to Finland’s by 2050 and will be communist by 2121. Then, finally, your sect will have no more excuses for hating them. Scratch that, I’m sure you’ll manage to think of something.
“It is worth investigating further the relationship of the Chinese people with its government.”
It is. No system is perfect let alone China’s but what they have is far more responsive to the peoples’ needs than most of the bourgeois “democracies”.
“I should have also said Debs for most of his membership of the SPA never held any administrative position or official function in the Party. His role was mostly advisory.”
Which changes nothing. I was pointing out the inconsistency of your thinking. Which is still inconsistent by the way.
“But I am still curious that you are unable to direct me to any political party that you could actually recommend that you sympathise and support which makes me think they are as insignificant as we may be.”
You are in Britain. I am not British. I haven’t a clue of the political landscape of the left in your country. Doubtless there are many left-wing groups you could seek to align yourself with were you prone to do so.
“What key-words did you enter in your search to bring you here? What were you looking for on the internet? What intrigued you enough that you chose to engage with us?”
I don’t remember what sequence of events led me to this site. I just thought yours was a serious socialist website that gave the opportunity to post in forums. Little did I know that you’re not serious at all and that you hate every socialist in the world but the handful of other eccentrics who make up your “party”.
