TrueScotsman
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“Bijou, imagine the outcry if Irish nationalists, Scottish nationalists and Welsh nationalists who all have separatism as their aim were excluded from standing candidates in general or local elections and those who participate in marches supporting independence from the UK were deemed to be criminals.”
Apples and oranges. Your analogy is as flawed as the rest of your thinking. A more apt analogy would be an aggressive foreign power invading Britain in order to force its population to become drug addicts. At the same time and at cannon point the invader leases to itself The City of London for 99 years. Finally the lease expires but the invader has not done with Britain. It sees Britain as an economic competitor, one that needs to be Balkanised. So it funds and advises fascist dupes within TCOL to riot and organise for seperatism. That would be far more accurate a comparison.
You go on to quote numerous quislings who support just such a policy. Shame on you, imperialist troll. I hereby strip you of your title to the name socialist. You are unworthy.
And stop it with your anti-China gish-galloping. It smacks of desperation. If you’re going to be an imperialist tool, at least have the courage to defend your arguments. You might actually earn a modicum of respect that way. Instead you obliviously allow me to wipe the floor with you as, without skipping a beat, you scroll down what appears to be a prepared list of US State Department talking points. Such a sad little budgie.
“Even when the Russian government belatedly admit the Katyn massacre was carried out by the USSR, you will dismiss it as fake.”
Katyn? I’m so glad you brought it up. Katyn was literally a Nazi black-propaganda op cooked up by Goebbels. They’d just lost at Stalingrad 3 months earlier and in a desperate attempt to divide the allies “discovered” the bodies of the dead Polish officers. The Nazi’s didn’t even try to hide the fact that all the victims just happened to have been shot with German ammunition. Grover Furr has proved conclusively that the “official” story is nothing but a pack of lies. It warms my heart, that you,the brave bearer of the socialist flame regurgitates Nazi propaganda against the Soviet Union in defence of the fallen aristocrats of the Polish bourgeois army.
As to the bourgeois Russian Federation’s admittal, it means nothing. They’re as opposed to Stalin as any other capitalist regime and probably did so in a futile attempt to ingratiate themselves with Western Europe and the Poles. It was a dastardly act that I’m sure will be reversed one day in the future.
“And all of Stalin’s victims of his show trials and gulags were guilty.”
As a matter of fact, the defendants in the show trials were indeed guilty. The gulags housed regular criminals most for no more than 10 years. Apart from at the height of the war, the death rate in them was no different to that of the general population. You know nothing of serious history. Instead you vomit up bourgeois lies and call them your own. What a good little budgie.
“You may chalk this exchange as one of your “victories” and a “triumph” for your “truth” because I am no longer willing to engage any further with someone such as yourself.
Goodbye and good riddance”
Well, those words didn’t age well, did they? Maybe next time you utter them, you’ll really mean them.
“I have tolerated your ignorance long enough”
Clearly you have not. You went less than a full day before reengaging. You suffer a similar pathology to me, an irresistible urge to have the last word.
“Julian Assange is sitting in jail right now for having released diplomatic secret messages such as the one I quoted to you”
No, he is imprisoned because he embarrassed the US with the release of the “collateral murder” video. He could have “embarrassed” China all he liked til the cows came home and their would have been no consequences. China is not in the business of kidnapping foreign journalists from third countries. That would be the UK and US’ prerogative.
“that clearly supports my assertion that the regiments who suppressed the Tiananmen Sq protests were not local since these were disaffected”
That was not the claim you had originally made. Your claim was that a commander was removed.
“so much so that their commander disobeyed his orders and was court-martialled”
The cable you use to support your case makes no mention of any commander disobeying orders or being court-martialed. So again, I ask, prove your assertion.
“You insult the courage and bravery of the Chinese 38th Army who refused to turn their guns on innocent civilians.”
The “innocent civilians” where, exactly? And I mean WHERE exactly? Would they be the “innocents” who beat soldiers to death before immolating their corpses and stringing them up on bridges and buses? Don’t believe me? You can see the pictures for yourself here…
“The blood of Chinese democrats is on your hands as you obediently parrot Chinese government propaganda lies.”
No, the blood spilled was of regime change rioters, police, soldiers and some unlucky enough to be caught in the crossfire.
“Shame on you”
No, shame on you for parroting western anti-China fabulism.
“You refuse to accept any data that does not confirm your own prejudiced preconceptions.”
True or false, are there state department/foreign office/intelligence links between Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International and the Guardian? Simple question. If the answer is yes (the answer is yes), then why would I take their pronouncements on the issues at hand seriously?
“You exhibit all the attributes of an anti-vaxxer, holocaust denier, 9/11, JFK, anti-evolution creationist, flat-earther, that there was no moon landing, climate change denialist conspiracist.”
You forgot old Nessie up in that most famous of Lochs. Now that’s a conspiracy a True Scotsman can get behind! That aside, your juvenile attempt at straw manning me is duly noted.
“You don’t even comprehend how ridiculous your claims are.”
Which claims would those be?
“It is no wonder you have never found a political party to call home. You never will.”
Admittedly, my purity test is of a high standard. To start, no credulous parroting of US propaganda narratives. You, Alan, failed at the first hurdle.
“You have more in common with AnonQ than any socialist organisation.”
Actually, it’s QAnon not AnonQ. If you’re going to be making up stories about me, at least try to get the names right.
“China will incorporate “Xi Jinping Thought” into its national curriculum to help “establish Marxist belief” in the country’s youth, the education ministry said”
And you, a supposed Marxist, has a problem with that?
“The Ministry of Education said Chinese President Xi Jinping’s “thought on socialism with Chinese characteristics in the new era” would be taught from primary school level all the way to university.”
So you, a supposed Marxist, are opposed to teaching Marxism to children?
“New teaching materials must “cultivate patriotic feelings”, the guidelines said.”
Yes patriotism as opposed nationalism. (Nationalism is the chauvinist one in case you didn’t know.)
““Xi Jinping Thought on Socialism With Chinese Characteristics for a New Era” was formally enshrined in the country’s constitution in 2018.”
Do you even know what Xi Jinping thought is? And no, I won’t accept Wikipedia’s version of it, sorry.
“Xi’s personal power has also been strengthened by the abolition of presidential term limits.”
Numerous countries have no term limits for the highest office, yours included. Xi serves at the pleasure of the Party. If it chooses to replace him with someone more fit for purpose then it may do so.
“So what is the ‘actual meat’ of your argument? That the ruling class of China is superior in some way to that of the US or European nations?”
Reading comprehension not your strong suit? You interjected into the discussion about the motivations of the main western European powers previous to the outbreak of WW2.
“Our stooge of the Chinese “communist” party condemns himself with his own words. Democracy, according to him, is only available to those who agree with him!”
You would extend political rights to those in your country who are Quislings of a foreign power? Political rights are a privilege, they do not extend to saboteurs, turncoats and traitors. There was a time such people would have their heads roughly shaven if they were lucky, a bullet to the nape of the neck if less so.
“He might not be the only true Scotsman, but he’s definitely the only person that still believes that China is a Socialist society.”
It’s a mixed economy run by a communist party working towards communism. It will be fully communist by 2121.
“referring to the Tiananmen Sq slaughter”
There was no “slaughter” on Tienanmen Square. In your own words, what do you think happened on the Square June 4th and 5th?
“It is asserting extraterritorial jurisdiction over any critic of the Chinese government anywhere and of any nationality.”
Phantom persecution syndrome. I have a brother, he’s a right wing shill like you. He suffers similar delusions.
“But my question is how representative was the voting for anti-government candidates?
Were these 2019 local district elections rigged?”
If you’re making the claim the burden of proof is on you, Alan.
“Are the changes to Hong Kong’s electoral law, fair to the opposition?”
Not if the opposition are separatist traitors, no.
“Are the new rules gerrymandered in favour of pro-government candidates?”
Again, the burden of proof is on he who makes the claim.
“The protests involving millions were not engineered by them.”
The huge crowds were brought out on the streets because of media encouragement. Enter Jimmy Lai, billionaire media magnate and owner of Apple Daily. The unctuous Lai flew to Washington regularly to meet with Washington regime change hawks. The turncoat is now under arrest for his treachery. But you no doubt support this particular billionaire.
Behind a made-for-TV Hong Kong protest narrative, Washington is backing nativism and mob violence
“Some protesters have carried flags of the US, UK, Republic of China and even the Hong Kong colonial flag in a bid to win international sympathy. But would CIA plants be so obvious?”
Yes, they would. The NED was funding the protests. The NED is literally the CIA.
The NED Strikes Again: How Neocon Money is Funding the Hong Kong Protests
“As I have referred already, Lenin was accused of being a German agent.”
And Lenin was receiving German assistance, wasn’t he? Care to choose a better example to support your case? Lol
https://www.dw.com/en/how-germany-got-the-russian-revolution-off-the-ground/a-41195312
“The US rightwing accuse BLM and Antifa of being foreign-financed.”
And you thought there was a massacre on Tienanmen Square. But unlike you and your fellow kooks, all my claims are verifiable.
“There is no point in providing you with citations. You dismiss each as false. HRW, Amnesty …all CIA fronts”
HRW is a front for the US State Department. This is not controversial.
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/06/human-rights-watchs-revolving-door/
About Amnesty…
“Unfortunately, Amnesty has a long history of collaborating with Western intelligence agencies to bolster regime change abroad. One cofounder of the organization, Peter Benenson, had deep ties to the British Foreign and Colonial Offices. Benenson worked for years propping up the Apartheid regime of South Africa and other white supremacist societies — all while secretly being paid by the U.K. government.
A second cofounder, Luis Kutner, was an FBI asset whose intelligence was used in the agency’s murder of Black Panther Fred Hampton. He also did secret work to undermine the anti-imperialist Congolese Prime Minister Patrice Lumumba, whose murder has been strongly linked to American and Belgian intelligence services.”
Amnesty International: Navalny a Prisoner of Conscience. But not Manning, Assange or Mandela
“I happen to know a person who has editorial access to Wikipedia and regularly makes contributions to it.”
“I have a friend” Lol…Anecdote is evidence of nothing.
“2. FACT. THE ARMY THAT HAS COMMITTED THE ATROCITIES IN BEIJING IS 27 ARMY WHO ARE TROOPS FROM SHANXI PROVINCE (?), ARE 60 PERCENT ILLITERATE AND ARE CALLED PRIMITIVES. THE COMMANDER OF 27 ARMY WAS YANG ZHENHUA, SON OF YANG BAIDING BROTHER OF YANG SHANGKUN. THEY WERE KEPT WITHOUT NEWS FOR TEN DAYS AND TOLD THEY WERE TO TAKE PART IN AN EXERCISE.”
A racist load of codswallop vomited up by an agent of imperialism. At any rate, the cable does nothing to support your claim of commanders being removed for failing to carry out atrocities.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/03/china-deny-tiananmen-square
LOL, the Guardian.
“The new security law was rushed through without local consultation and all 66 articles published only after it became law.
“After much publicity but VIRTUALLY no local consultation,”
So there was local consultation then. Lol.The law was entirely necessary to put an end to the US and UK’s attempted colour revolution.
Funny how your sympathies lie with US regime change operatives. What socialist bona fides you display. Pat yourself on the back Alan.
” First announced in May, the unprecedented criminal legislation was drafted in Beijing, rapidly tabled behind closed doors, and bypassed any local legislative oversight.”
Because the local legislators are regime change traitors.
“You may feel safe but I, on the other hand, if I ever visited Hong Kong risk arrest under Article 38 states”
Oh, please. You have way too inflated an opinion of yourself. Unless you are an actual intelligence agent?
You certainly quack like a duck.“This is all very ‘bourgeois’ in identifying a whole nation with it’s ruling class and it’s economic/imperialist interests.”
Instead of being a pedantic bore, how about addressing the actual meat of my argument? Maybe you’re vegan or something.
“I not only addressed that the residents of Hong Kong possess legitimate complaints on its administration and that their protests were met with repression”
Yet you did not address the foreign funding of and support for said protests, the fascist nature of a core set of hooligans embedded within the protest movement who terrorised and murdered those with whom they disagreed, engaged in mass vandalism of public infrastructure and attacks on the authorities all designed to invite state repression which could then be used as anti-China propaganda.
You are so consumed with your hatred of actually existing socialist countries that you are blind to the narratives pedaled by the imperialist west. Even worse, you debase yourself by parroting said narratives making you nothing but a mouthpiece of empire. You’re an embarrassment to the left. A pathetic, hateful useful idiot and troll.
“Indeed the Chinese government has prevailed with Civil Human Rights Front disbanding.”
The pro-democracy Professional Teachers’ Union (PTU), has also been forced to dissolve itself.”
And where did all the funding for said disbanded groups come from? Why the NED, a CIA front group. You’re supporting the CIA, a serious revolutionary you are not.
“Amnesty International commented “Hong Kong’s draconian national security law has triggered an accelerating disappearance of independent civil society groups from the city”
Ditto above.
“It was a law passed without publicly revealing its text.”
You lie.
In full: Official English translation of the Hong Kong national security law
“Well done, TS, for being an obedient apologist for authoritarianism and totalitarianism. You are a proud supporter of state despotism.”
No, that’s you. A CIA mouthpiece for US global empire. A wolf in sheep’s clothing. Anyone who considers you a comrade has rocks in their head. I take it all back. Your heart is not in the right place it is a poisoned, shriveled husk, pumping nothing but bile and venom.
“You seek to mislabel real people power as a tool of the anti-Chinese foreign interference but 2019 elections saw the government suffer defeat in a record turn-out of voters.”
Proving that the 1 China 2 systems policy is still in effect.
“2020 elections saw pro-democracy candidates disqualified, many arrested.”
And why were they arrested? Because they were sabotaging the legislative process making it impossible for the government to function. They were not serious politicians, they were saboteurs.
“The election has been postponed, supposedly due to the pandemic, an event yourself claimed minimum disruption to China’s economy although many nations have conducted elections. Next week is when they are now due. A sham exercise with pro-democracy candidates excluded.”
Again, why were they excluded?
“Hong Kong schools are no longer able to refer to the Tienanmen Sq massacre.”
That’s because one doesn’t teach fiction in history class.
There was no Tienanmen Square massacre. Everything you think you know about the events there is a lie. But like a good little running dog, you bark at your master’s every command. Shill, lick-spittle.
“History is being re-written and you are a purveyor of such State propaganda. (Did you know that the Beijing garrison couldn’t be trusted to put the protest down with many military commanders refusing to obey orders so the government brought in provincial non-Han, non-Chinese speaking regiments. Xu, the commander of the Beijing military region was to be court-martialed for his refusal)”
Citations please.
“But I dispute that foreign interests motivated the protest movement, controlled it and directed it.”
Well then you’re even more ignorant than I originally gave you credit for. Its what the CIA, sorry NED does. How naive, like a babe in arms.
“You placed a lot of stock on the survey of public approval of the Chinese government. 70% of Hong Kong residents disapproved of the police treatment of protesters.”
Not a single protester was killed in the months of violence. The restraint of the authorities was nothing short of super human.
“I think you misunderstood Wez on this point.”
You are correct, I misunderstood.
“Of course, your claim that it was only the USSR that was not seeking war, goes against all those historians who view the British and French appeasement policies as evidence of a reluctance to go to war.”
I already addressed that issue above when I wrote…
“It was the Europeans, principally the UK, France and Poland that were trying to encourage Germany and the USSR to fight it out against one another. The Soviets were aware of this and signed the non-aggression pact so that those powers would have to join the fight the Soviets knew was coming.”
The policy of “appeasement” was one of allowing Nazi aggression provided it was directed at the Soviet Union. Hitler went and messed up all those best laid plans by invading Poland. Poland, incidentally, had been negotiating to join Hitler’s Axis but they could not come to terms over the status of Gdansk/Danzig, a Prussian city that had just elected a National Socialist government. Danzig had been severed from Germany by the Versailles Treaty in hopes that it would weaken Prussia, seen by most of Europe as the core of German militarism.
“TS – why should any socialist give a flying f**k about the Machiavellian tactics of Stalin”
Because the Soviets were the only honest actors out of all the major powers. They did everything possible to avoid war unlike Britain, France, Germany and Poland.
“or any of the other parasitic warlords of the time?”
You want to be ignorant of history and doomed to repeat it? I thought that was a pretty well known error in thinking these days.
“The only important element is the reasons why the working class was willing and able to murder each other for no other reason than these power hungry degenerates desired it.”
Prove the USSR desired war. Why did they do everything possible to avoid it from attempting to form a collective security agreement in the League of Nations to proposing the stationing of troops on the German/Polish border?
“The second world war was just a sequel to the unfinished business of the first world war”
True.
“which was enabled by the leftist betrayal of the second international.”
False.
“There is what was called the secret protocol of the pact, denied to have existed by Stalin but confirmed. Google it.”
The so-called “secret-protocol” was nothing of the sort and was referred to by Winston Churchill in his “mystery wrapped in an enigma” speech just two weeks after the signing of the pact. It’s purpose was to create a sphere of influence within Polish territory where the Polish government could flee under Soviet protection. Stalin wanted the Poles as a buffer against the Nazis. However, the cowards in the Polish government fled to Romania instead thus dissolving the state of Poland and leaving the Soviets with no choice but to claim the territory themselves or else leave it all to the Nazis.That is why none of Poland’s allies at the time declared war on the USSR and why the League of Nations did not take action.
“Was Stalin culpable? He instructed that no reconnaissance nor intelligence gathering should take place and withdrew frontier forces to the interior.”
I’ve no idea where you get your WW2 history from but I’d look elsewhere were I you. The Soviets had many spies warning of the invasion but their intelligence was contradictory and often mistaken making it impossible to know for sure when the invasion was to take place. The documentary series Soviet Storm has an excellent episode on this very topic.
“and withdrew frontier forces to the interior.”
That too is false. In fact the opposite was the case. The Soviets lost a huge number of aircraft on the first day of the invasion because an incompetent commander failed to camouflage them. He was subsequently executed for his incompetence. The TV series goes into that also. It is a bourgeoisie production and has some inaccuracies because of that but is mostly very good.
“No doubt you will dismiss this article as sectarian (and uses Wiki)”
Yes, it is.
“However, we have come distracted from my primary concern – is M-L or Xi a strategy to achieve socialism?”
Actually, this thread is supposed to be about Hong Kong and you failed to address pretty much everything I had to say on the subject. So maybe we should go back to that?
“I once read in the first days of the German invasion, Stalin was nowhere to be found but was finally located at one of his dachas.”
And I once read The Lord of the Rings. It too is a work of fiction but unlike yours, quite good. Stalin’s diary of the time remains in existence showing him to be working prodigiously to organise the country’s defence.
“It was indeed Stalin’s incompetence that contributed to the speed of the German invasion.”
And what incompetence would that be exactly? Given your penchant for telling furphies this should be good.
“However, Poland refused to grant its permission”
Indeed it did, proving Poland’s leadership to be suicidally and criminally incompetent.
“because they justifiably feared that the Soviets wanted to use these as a pretext to take over its territory.”
They did indeed. For they had stolen the land through invasion in 1921.
“Other than Poland, in 1940, the USSR invaded Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania”
There was no such invasion. Archives recovered from the Nazis prove that Hitler ordered the countries to allow the USSR to build military outposts there. Those military outposts, built to defend against Nazi aggression were the extent of the “invasion”. Not a shot was fired nor a toe stubbed.
“and an attempted invasion of Finland”
The Fins were in league with the Nazis. Stalin tried unsuccessfully to negotiate a realignment of the border so as to allow defence of Leningrad. In response, the Soviets would relinquish double the amount of land around Keralia. The Fins refused, confirming Stalin’s suspicions that they were actually working with the Nazis, which they were. If I remember correctly, Hitler’s plans for operation Barbaraossa, drawn up before the Winter War, included the Fins. The Soviets were forced to take the land and did so. Leningrad did not fall in part because of this.
“Germany and USSR made a commercial agreement whereby the Soviet Union sent critical raw materials and ingredients to Germany to exchange weapons”
Yes, but why were they forced to do so? Because the western countries were refusing to trade arms to the USSR forcing them to turn to the Reich. And they got a very good deal. Hitler gave the Soviets everything they asked for, greatly improving the sophistication of Soviet military hardware.
