TrueScotsman
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“Ahhhh…so that is why Russia invaded Ukraine, to ensure its sovereignty, bring it peace and secure its prosperity.”
Ukraine was invaded because it was on the threshold of its own invasion of Donbas and was a NATO stalking horse threatening to develop nuclear weapons. As Zelensky has also promised to take back Donbass and Crimea, this would mean nuclear war.
Ukrainian President Says They Will Get Nuclear Weapons Unless US Protects Them
https://thehill.com/policy/international/3704092-zelensky-we-will-definitely-liberate-crimea/
“LOL LOL LOL. So supporting one disgusting authoritarian capitalist regime against another is …er…” revolutionary” and is going to somehow advance the cause of global democracy.”
I don’t know what name one gives to the overthrow of centuries of US/European hegemony if not revolutionary. What would you call it?
“This guy gets more and more hilarious with every contribution he makes to this debate. Keep it up, TS. We could all do with a good chuckle in these gloomy times…”
This is what passes for debate on this thread? Robbo, the adults are talking. Run along child, the playground is over there.
“What strains credulity is the claim that Russia’s annexation of Crimea has anything to do with resisting fascism.”
Crimea was never legally part of Ukraine and its inhabitants never wanted to be so. The government Crimeans had overwhelmingly voted for in Kiev was overthrown in a fascist coup. Neo-Nazis had already carried out pogroms in Odessa and were making their way to Crimea to hand out rough justice there also. Crimeans, cleverly, used the political crisis as a justification to do what they’d always wanted to do which was to agitate for annexation and return to Russia.
Despite the wishes of its people, if there had not been a fascist coup in Ukraine Crimea would still be a part of Ukraine. But the threat of fascist violence, the historically illegal annexation of the territory by Kiev and the threat of losing Sevastopol to a pro-NATO regime provoked Russia to action.
“Even before the annexation local militias were quite effective in keeping Ukrainian ultra-nationalists (and all other ‘Maidanites’) out of the peninsula. If there is a threat of ‘fascism’ in Crimea, it comes from Russian ultra-nationalists – like the men who dress up as Cossacks and whip opponents of the secessionist regime.”
Rubbish. Look at the polls now of how happy the residents of Crimea are to have returned to Russia. Nowhere are fascists parading around threatening people.
“I don’t think you bothered because from it I actually posted…”
No I didn’t bother because the facts are already known to me.
“Again to reiterate your and our big difference.
We say it makes no sense at all to die in a civil war between two equally nationalist bourgeois sides. Both sides are counter-revolutionary as we see it.”
No, Russia is revolutionary. It is acting to overturn the US/NATO hegemony encapsulated in the “rules based international order”, ie. The US/NATO make the rules and all others follow orders. Russia, by standing up to US/NATO aggression, is birthing a new multi-polar world that will be far more democratic and far less authoritarian. Yet you lot are all too dim to see because you’re ideological fanatics who actually support the status quo in all your missives.
“You have instead chosen to support Russian Tweedledee against Ukraine’s Tweedledum.”
No, I’ve chosen to support the side that is sticking its thumb in the eye of the global hegemon and providing space for all nations to pursue sovereignty and peaceful co-prosperity. You lot are all reactionaries who mimic Marxist speechifying only to sink a dagger into the backs of any socialist who ever gains power. You are pathetic, sniveling reactionaries one and all.
“MS – We may be wasting our time with TrueScotsman but someone reading the debate who might hold similar views may be persuaded by our arguments.”
Lol, you don’t have any arguments. Why come here when you can just go to the Guardian and get the exact same tripe served only with a bit more rhetorical flourish?
“As for the anachronistic use of the designations fascist and nazi some have attempted to, along with bolshevism, put them all together under the concept of ‘totalitarianism’.”
Totalitarianism is a stupid concept impossible to implement. But if anything comes close to it it’s capitalism.
“It would be foolish to deny”
Erm no. It would be foolish to compare. The two systems are polar opposites.
“that they have much in common such as curtailing freedoms”
Lol. All societies curtail freedoms. Tried out your freedom to murder lately?
“worship of a charismatic leader”
Stalin fought against the personality cult some were encouraging. He absolutely did not endorse it.
“militarism”
One can not defend one’s revolution against capitalist reaction without a miltary. A point you fools will never understand.
“love of authority”
Civilization requires a level of authority it simply can not be avoided. Murderers need to be arrested, land needs to be appropriated for vital projects, rations need to be cut during food crises. That’s the compromise one must make if one wants to live in a society. Perhaps you’d prefer to live alone in a cave in the Himalayas? Then you’d be free of all authority but your own. Do try it, please, I’m begging you!
“xenophobia”
Lol, the people whose anthem is The International are actually xenophobes don’t you know?!
“Call it what you like: fascism, nazism, totalitarianism, nationalism or just decadent capitalism the truth is that they are all dependent on irrational ideologies.”
But your ideology, the one that says you should just run away whenever anything bad ever happens, is not irratiinal. Lol
“Of course we need to put such movements in their historical context”
Yeah, whatever historical context The Guardian puts socialism in because The Guardian is the font of all knowledge.
“and constitute a profound psychological barrier to socialism which needs to be confronted.”
You know what is more of a psychological barrier to socialism? Demonising actual socialists and their societies. You lot constantly froth at the mouth as you pour invective on socialist societies then say, “workers, embrace socialism!” I swear to God if you’re not a capitalist psyop you bloody well should be.
“No similarities then? Bolshevik authoritarianism, militarism, imperialism, leader cult, hatred of democracy, state dominance in every sphere of life both private and public, nationalism, ruling elites, wage slavery, continual sloganizing propaganda, racism, no free speech or press, politicized courts, concentration camps (gulags), etc. etc.”
Every single claim in your long list is a lie propagated by the bourgeois press, academia and intelligence servcies. As you’re a Guardian Bro you are a credulous consumer of such untruths. You will wholeheartedly believe the most ridiculous claims made about socialists because you hate them. You only use Marxism to trash Marxists. Grover Furr does a great job debunking every one of the lies of the bourgeois press that you’ve just parroted. Squawk!
“Please refer me to your source on who began the firing?”
“Artillery rounds landed on both sides of the line of control but the vast majority of them exploded on the Donbas side. The same can be said for the impacts north-east of Luhansk.”
https://www.moonofalabama.org/2022/02/ukraine-who-is-firing-at-whom-and-who-is-lying-about-it.html
“Ethnic cleansing is considered an act of genocide, no? That is what the Ukrainians had planned.”
“Please provide evidence of the ethnic cleansing.”
You’ll notice I’ve written “had planned”. The Russian intervention scuttled said plans.
“I have watched some of Lancaster’s videos. Nothing definitive can be claimed in them other than his own interpretation.”
He is a journalist on the ground reporting and filming Ukrainian atrocities. I don’t know what more you expect of him.
“Would his presence have been permitted if his reporting was anti-separatist?”
Ukraine certainly has restrictions on journalists in Donbass. I don’t know that Russia does. Do you have evidence to the contrary?
https://www.vice.com/en/article/wxneb4/ukraine-patrick-lancaster-journalist
“Some hard facts
The 1991 independence referendum
Crimea: 54,.2% but an exceedingly low turn-out of 37% so it is questionable if Crimeans supported independence. Not so the other turn-out, about the same as any fair election.
Luhansk: 83.9%
Donetsk: 83.9%
People’s opinions can change and perhaps the later violence would bring a different result.”“Per the English meaning of the word Invasion, there literally and truthfully was no invasion of Crimea by Russia.
As for whether the Crimean people wanted to be part of Russia: As shown below, there is hardly a more verified fact in modern history than that the Crimean people always wanted to leave Ukraine and rejoin Russia.
Because Crimea had desperately tried to leave Ukraine and reunify with Russia, and because everybody knew that Crimea wanted to return to Russia, Crimea was regularly surveyed by pollsters and the UN itself concerning the matter. And all the surveys taken always showed the same thing: That Crimea wanted to leave Ukraine and rejoin Russia.
Crimea was a part of Russia, but was then given to Ukraine as a gift by a Ukrainian leader of the USSR. The giving of Crimea to Ukraine was illegal and invalid under Soviet law. So, Crimea was never lawfully a part of Ukraine.
The Crimean people, who were predominantly Russian, also never wanted to be part of Ukraine, and had tried for decades to leave Ukraine and rejoin Russia. But their efforts were repeatedly, illegitimately, and forcefully obstructed by the government in Ukraine. And the Ukrainian government’s efforts obstructing Crimea’s reunification with Russia were illegal under Ukrainian and international law.
Here is the comprehensive chronology of surveys of Crimea concerning the matter of whether they wanted to leave Ukraine and reunify with Russia. Also included is the history of surveys of Crimea following their 2014 accession to Russia, showing how satisfied and happy the Crimean people are over being reunified with Russia:
1991 – 94.3% of Crimeans vote to leave Ukraine and join the USSR as a republic. The USSR dissolves later that year and Crimea is unable to follow through on re-identifying as its own republic of the USSR, separate from Ukraine. Crimea isn’t self-sufficient, and Russia is bankrupt and unable to support Crimea, and so Crimea reluctantly settles for autonomous status within Ukraine — but immediately begins what will be its repeated attempts to leave Ukraine and rejoin Russia.
1992 – May 5: Crimea’s parliament declares Crimea to be independent, with an independence date set for August 2. The same day, Crimea’s parliament votes in favour of a new constitution which identifies Crimea as an independent state. May 6: Crimea’s parliament amends the new constitution to say that Crimea is a part of Ukraine. The independence referendum date is still in place. May 15: Ukraine’s parliament unilaterally annuls Crimea’s declaration of independence and orders Crimea to cancel the planned independence referendum.
1994 – January: Crimeans vote into power a Crimean government that is a pro secession from Ukraine and pro accession to Russia. May: Crimea’s parliament votes 94.5% in favour of restoring the 1992 Crimean constitution which declared Crimea independent from Ukraine. Kiev forcefully intervenes and orders the dissolution of the government.
1995 – Kiev takes away Crimea’s constitution in a unilateral measure to prevent Crimea from organizing referendums. This move by Kiev is a violation of Ukraine’s legal obligations and Crimea’s rights as stated in Article 1.1 and 1.3 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights treaty, which Ukraine is signatory to.
1997 – Crimea’s parliament votes 54 to 1 in favour of censuring a regional government installed by Kiev.
2008 – Kiev, Ukraine think-tank, Razumkov Centre, conducts a poll of Crimea and finds that 63.8% of Crimeans (76% of Russians, 55% of Ukrainians, and 14% of Crimean Tatars, respectively) would like Crimea to secede from Ukraine and join Russia.
2009 – 2011 – The United Nations Development Programme polls Crimea regularly on the question of whether Crimea would like to leave Ukraine and join Russia. And every time the result shows that, yes, Crimea would like to leave Ukraine and join Russia.”
The article continues but you get the idea.
“But from all other polls conducted in DPR and LPR the favoured constitutional change was not secession but federalism.”
Well, that isn’t the case anymore.
“Obliged to read the history of events due to our exchanges, I can only reach the same conclusion as I always had…nationalism is toxic and poisoned the minds of working people.”
Yes, Ukrainian nationalism has done that.
“The best thing for an ordinary person to do is to leave the country and the breakaway republics. In my youth I met a number of Northern Irish who felt the same way.”
And how is that possibly the best thing? To leave your life behind because Nazis want to take everything you have. Get out of here.
“There are plenty of extreme right-wing nationalists in Russia too – and racists! They might not call themselves specifically Nazis – as you pointed out, it is forbidden to form a Nazi Party in Russia – but what’s in a name? Is there anything that rules out a de facto Nazi – that is someone sharing the same ideological traits as an “official nazi” – opposing said official nazi? Nothing that I can see. After all, a Russian nazi or neo nazi being an extreme right-wing nationalist would naturally be opposed to Hitler as a figurehead given that the German army invaded Russia and yet share more or less the same ideological outlook as the German Nazis but be dressed up under a different name.”
Yes,there are neo-Nazis in every country but in only one are they officially incorporated into the state’s miltary. That would be Ukraine. Ukraine officially venerates and holds as father of the nation a holocaust perpetrator and Nazi-collaborator, Stepan Bandera. Fascists hold key posts in the Ukrainian government, military and police forces. To suggest Russian neo-Nazis enjoy anything like their prominence in Ukraine is laughable.
“In fact, your whole argument is very weak and unsupported”
Rubbish. All my claims are evidence based.
“I make the point again – there is very little to choose between the authoritarian right-wing capitalist regime of Ukraine and the authoritarian right-wing capitalist regime of Russia. They are cut from the same cloth.”
No, they are not. You
See no distinction between any states on earth.“Furthermore, you have failed to identify the true extent of those in Ukraine in a) the government b) the army and c) the population at large who self-identify as Nazis according to YOUR OWN definition of Nazi – namely “Extreme right nationalists who venerate Adolf Hitler or his collaborator Stepan Bandera and wish to lead the white race against their assorted imaginary foes.””
I just did that very thing in my last post. Lol
“I suspect the proportions would be relatively low in each case.”
It’s not the numbers that are important but the control they have over society and their ability to implement their will. Both
Of which they have far in excess of their numbers.“I don’t think interest in figures like Stepan Bandera necessarily translates into identification with Hitler and the Nazis. It is not as simple as that. Bandera was a Ukrainian nationalist and it could well be this and not so much the fact he was a fascist that fuels this nostalgic interest in him in Ukraine. As this article points out:
“Bandera was in occupied Poland when on June 30, 1941, his comrades proclaimed an independent Ukrainian state in Nazi-occupied Lviv — and the Germans banned him from traveling to Ukraine. Adolf Hitler rejected the idea of Ukrainian independence, and Bandera was arrested and imprisoned in Sachsenhausen concentration camp until 1944.””
Lol. Now you’re an apologist for fascists. Love your work! He was briefly imprisoned by the Nazis who then released him.
“I call Donbass “your” link since you refuse to accept any source other than pro-Russian or anti-West.”
A: that still doesn’t make it “my” source as it was yours and B: that’s simply not true.
“Your rejection of Amnesty International is an example. (Strange when it it agrees with some as in its condemnation of Israel as an apartheid state it is an acceptable source)”
I don’t know who you’re talking about but I don’t think it reliable under any circumstances. It is too compromised.
“OSCE reported that they had free access to inspect the Ukrainian side but were stopped from examining the separatist lines. Who was hiding what?”
Perhaps because in the past the OSCE has been caught spying for Ukraine.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-russia-spy-idUSKCN0ZY27V
“Your claim is that 125,000 Ukrainian troops were ready to invade. Donbas Insider reports military hardware preparations of an offensive but no mention of troops build-up. A strange omission.”
And yet you stated that the publication had made no mention of a build-up of Ukrainian troops on the border. Now you agree it did. I’ll take that as an admission that you were in error.
“Your claim is that the invasion was a preemptive strike to thwart an imminent intended Ukrainian invasion of separatist positions.”
Correct.
“I question that premise. You accept it”
You do, despite the overwhelming evidence in support of my conclusion.
“But neither you nor I are privy to either side’s intelligence reports. As in all wars, one side blames the other side of starting it.”
You miss the fact that Kiev had already started the war 8 years earlier. Kind of a big oversight.
“There was an increase in artillery exchanges immediately prior to Russia’s invasion. You suggest it was a softening up preliminary to invasion. Others say it was an attempt by the separatists to provoke Ukraine and create the pretext for Russian intervention.”
Lol, the OSCE reported that the shells were overwhelmingly fired from the Ukrainian side.
“As you have not challenged the credentials of OSCE, perhaps this statement should be noted
OSCE Secretary General Helga Schmid the Secretary General condemned, in the strongest terms, the Russian military action against Ukraine. “It did not need to be this way. But Russia chose force over dialogue. Dialogue was offered.””He’s entitled to his opinion however wrong-headed it is.
“I have already conceded that the SPGB accepts that the mediation for peace was genuine on all parts of the Western nation such as the UK’s bellicose pose.”
You mean “not” genuine?
“The claim that Ukraine intended genocide against Russian-speakers is also unfounded.”
Ethnic cleansing is considered an act of genocide, no? That is what the Ukrainians had planned.
https://tass.com/defense/1418033
“The casualty rate of civilians long before the evacuation you cite demonstrates the non-existence of such a policy.”
Rubbish. The ethnic cleansing could not proceed because it was being resisted militarily.
“The evacuation of civilians had not been anywhere near completed, and many remained if Ukraine chose to deliberately target them.”
Ukraine was and to this very moment is deliberately shelling civilians. Watch a few Patrick Lancaster YouTube videos. He documents the ongoing slaughter of civilians by the coup regime on a daily basis.
“But let us move on to the other justification of the invasion by Russia. The de-Nazification.”
“I asked you to identify who those nazis are and to detail their strength.”
I linked to an article way back documenting the coup in Ukraine and the positions the far-right fascists took in the new government, specifically in the police/security forces, intelligence and education. The Ukrainian military included some 100,000 far right militiamen at the beginning of the conflict.
“TM asked for you to define what a nazi means to Russia in the context of this war.”
Extreme right nationalists who venerate Adolf Hitler or his collaborator Stepan Bandera and wish to lead the white race against their assorted imaginary foes.
“The Russian workers and the Ukrainian workers have far more in common with each other than ever have with their respective ruling classes. They should tell their respective ruling classes urging them to fight in a capitalist squabble over Ukraine’s economic resources to go f**k themselves.”
Except that’s not what the war is about. If one doesn’t understand the causes of the conflict, as you clearly don’t, how does one hope to resolve it?
Russia didn’t want this war. The Kremlin did everything possible to avoid it. You have no idea what you’re talking about.
“And Russia’s workers could have sabotaged the invasion…
Unfortunately, patriotism stops the workers from realising how much power they have to stop war and save lives.”
And why would they want to do that when they’re being threatened by literal Nazis? Nazis understand only one thing, violence. You live by the sword you die by it.
“Your Carnegie link is from April 2021.
I had already said, “It did report preparations for a possible offensive – a full year previously.””
What? You were talking about the Donbass Insider! You said it reported nothing about a troop build-up in February 2022 which is blatantly false.
“I was discussing the immediate period before the invasion.”
So was I. I linked to a Donbass Insider article late January 2022. Take a look.
“I qualified my message with the statement
“Your claim of the Ukrainian build-up could well be in response to the Russian one.””
I know, and I provided a link proving your statement false.
“You cannot deny Russian build-up because Russia readily admitted large-scale military exercises on Ukraine’s borders.”
I never denied a build-up. What I denied was that Russia was first to build-up troops and I provided a link proving Ukraine was first to do so. Did you even read anything I wrote? Lol
“If we wish to question accurate reporting. from Donbas Insider 11/2/22
“Russia’s imaginary invasion of Ukraine”“From your own source.”
Good grief Alan, Donbass Insider is your friggin source! I hadn’t even heard of it til you mentioned it and made a false claim about its reporting or lack thereof.
“If Moscow intervened in the Donbass, the military actions would take place hundreds of kilometres from Kiev.” Weeks later Russian forces were at the outskirts of Kiev.
It continues, “if the hysteria surrounding the imaginary Russian invasion of Ukraine is not based on anything concrete, fears of provocations or even an attempted offensive by the Ukrainian army in the Donbass seem justified”
Was the Russian invasion threat all imaginary?”
All completely irrelevant! Do focus Alan. We are discussing one very specific issue. The build-up of Ukrainian troops in preparation for an invasion of the Donbass. You denied that Donbass Insider had reported on a Ukrainian military build-up just prior to Russia’s intervention. I proved that statement false. You were wrong. Instead of attempting to change the subject, just admit you were mistaken.
“Your linked article ends “It is to be hoped that the meeting of the Normandy Format Heads of State Advisors, which will finally take place in Paris on 26 January 2022, will bring Ukraine to its senses.””
Why did I link to the article Alan? It was to prove you wrong. The article is about a Ukrainian troop build-up. A build-up you claimed Donbass Insider never reported on when obviously it did!
“Talks were held and planned to continue. Guess what ended them? Russia’s invasion which goes against your own narrative that Russia exhausted all efforts for a peaceful settlement.”
The Ukrainians were on the threshold of invading Donbass. The article linked to discusses the troops there ready to attack. The OSCE reported on the massive prepatory artillery barrages. Ukrainian politicians are on record saying they’d take back Donbass and Crimea and that the Minsk Accords were a smokescreen for a military build up. What more evidence do you need that Ukraine was about to invade? A fucking Tweet from Zelensky? Lol
“As you appear to respect the integrity of the Carnegie website, did you read other articles from it?
You say the vast amount of shells were falling on the separatist positions…yet the reported CIVILIAN casualties were very light. Again it confirms no genocidal intentions.”
The civilians were evacuated! As was reported in the Aljazeera article! My God, are you intentionally being this dim?
“Why not directly check the daily detailed OSCE reports that are available on the internet. Here is one for the 22/2/22
https://www.osce.org/files/2022-02-22%20Daily%20Report_ENG.pdf?itok=63057”
And what do they show? A massive uptick in violations because the Ukrainians were preparing to attack! Ukraine’s former President is on record saying they had no intention of implementing the Minsk Agreements and were just using them as cover to build up their military.
Ukraine’s new masterstroke against Russia is actually Ukraine’s biggest pro-Russia move
Kiev has said on multiple occasions that they will take back Donbass and Crimea. It’s no secret.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/01/ukraine-still-hopes-to-reclaim-crimea-and-donbass-from-russia.html
And then you act surprised when they do what they say?! Lol
“While I concede facts are confused by the fog of war and propaganda, from your posts, you place 100% certainty on the integrity of Russia’s reporting. I trust neither side.”
The facts are the facts. I’ve provided supporting evidence for all my claims.
“Amnesty International reported that Russia’s refugee process known as ‘filtration’ is a violation of international law. Its research shows that many displaced Ukrainians end up inside Russia or Russia-occupied territories involuntarily.”
Amnesty International is a regime change operation. It’s only function is to provide “evidence” of human rights abuses to give a fig leaf of legitimacy to US/NATO acts of aggression.
Amnesty International’s Troubling Collaboration with UK & US Intelligence
“Deportation and forcible transfer of civilians in occupied territory are prohibited by international humanitarian law and can constitute war crimes or crimes against humanity. Deportation of protected peoples such as civilians during war is prohibited by Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention. Human Rights Watch specialist Tanya Lokshina emphasized this point and called Russia to stop this practice.”
The Geneva Conventions compel warring parties to evacuate civilians from combat zones.
“Human rights experts consider the forcible transfer of Ukrainian children for “adoption” in Russia as a genocidal act. The Russian Duma has drafted a law which would formalize the “adoption” of Ukrainian orphaned children.”
Genocidal? Lol. I don’t think so.
“Finally, the SPGB fully acknowledges the hypocrisy of Ukraine and its Western allies in ascribing culpability to only one side of the conflict.”
But then you refuse to believe evidence to show that just one side is responsible for the conflict. You can’t have it both ways.
“TS- The war started on February 24th”
No, it started in 2014. Russia intervened in 2022.
“For a timeline that is relevant, why not review this very thread which began on November 15 2021”
Because your source is primarily the Guardian. Am I right? But we need to go back further than that. To February 2021 when Kiev first provoked Russia by threatening Donbass. It was in response to the February provocation that Russia built up its troop levels opposite.
https://carnegiemoscow.org/commentary/84308
“with reports of the Russian troop build-ups? Your claim of the Ukrainian build-up could well be in response to the Russian one.”
Nope. See above. You have the order of events in reverse. The Ukrainians built up troops on the borders of Donbass prompting the Russian response.
“The Ukraine Crisis Recedes – But A False Narrative Of It Leads To Bad Conclusions Aprill 22, 2021.
Since February the Ukraine built up a force to retake the renegade Donbas region in east-Ukraine by military force.”
Maybe the Guardian writers were taking time off those few months?
“In fact, why not check out the Euromaidan
Euromaidan – 2013 Ukraine protests”
The fascist led, CIA funded color revolution? What about it?
“But I thought I look at Donbass Insider, a separatist website, to see what was in the news.
https://www.donbass-insider.com/
Nothing at all reported by the website at the time of a Ukrainian build-up of 125,000 troops. It did report preparations for a possible offensive – a full year previously.”
Rubbish. The site was reporting on Ukrainian invasion preparations in Jan 2022.
The Russian foreign ministry reported the 125,000 figure. Of course, The Guardian didn’t because that would have messed up the narrative.
The people of Donbass were evacuating civilians because of the Ukrainian buildup. Even the staunchly pro-Washington Al Jazeera had to admit as much.
“I also checked with the OSCE monitoring mission website
https://www.osce.org/special-monitoring-mission-to-ukraine-closed
An increase in ceasefire violations, but no mention of any special Ukrainian troop build-up.”
An increase? Try a massive increase prepatory to an invasion. While the western corporate media remained completely silent, explosions documented by the OSCE increased from 76 on February 15th, to 316 on February 16th, to 654 on February 17th, and to 1,413 on February 18th.
“And the vast majority of restrictions placed on the OSCE observers came from the separatists, not the Ukrainians, which would have been expected if they were preparing for an offensive as you claim.”
The vast majority of the shells were falling on Donbass which is all you need to know.
“I suggest your own 125,000 figure stems from RT reporting”
https://www.rt.com/russia/541829-ukraine-army-deployed-donbass/
It comes from Russia, yes. Because the western press are complicit in the war. Lol
“Having said all this, once more I have to repeat the overall SPGB position that the Russian invasion was provoked and Ukrainian intransigence encouraged by Western interests.”
On that we are in agreement.
“Look, as a socialist, I couldn’t care two hoots about the “right of an independent Ukraine” to exist.”
That view does not make you a socialist. It makes you an infantile fanatic.
“I look forward to the day when the toxic institution called the nation-state along with its supporting capitalist ideology of nationalism disappears off the face of the earth.”
Lol. And capitalist states are just going to spontaneously disappear are they? It’s views like these that tell the world you’re not serious people.
““True Scotsman” (the name says it all!) understands nothing of this. Sadly he hasn’t got a socialist bone in his body.”
You wouldn’t recognise socialism were it to tear off one of your arms and beat you over the head with it. You denounce all the socialism and socialists who’ve ever actually taken power. It’s why no one takes you seriously.
“Anyway, the point is that I simply quoted from an article on “Putin’s imperial ambitions and Ukraine’s three-hundred-year road to statehood” and TS immediately jumps to the conclusion that I support the worldview of the author writing that article.”
You went to the effort of lifting certain passages from the text. For what purpose? Clearly it’s to, falsely, demonise Russia’s leader.
“I don’t but that does not mean I dismiss everything that the article said.”
Exactly.
“TS clearly – and as usual – did not read the article in question. Because very clearly there are sentiments recorded in that article expressed by Putin that affirm his imperialist outlook.”
I did read the article and no, there aren’t.
“Putin really does see himself as some sort of modern-day version of Peter the Great”
Really? He’s told you that himself has he? Lol
“notwithstanding that he sees himself as being on some sort of moral mission like “denazifying Ukaraine””
That is a moral mission. Russians hate Nazis for very good historical reasons. As do most Brits, French, Jews etc.
“(he could start with Russia if he was that intent on denazification).”
It is illegal to be a member of a Nazi party in Russia.
“In March 2014 he said in a speech “Kyiv is the mother of Russian cities,””
Erm, a historical fact.
“and argued that Russia and Ukraine were historically inseparable.”
You know almost all Ukrainians speak Russian, right? Lol.
““Ancient Rus is our common source and we cannot live without each other.””
A historical fact.
“A few days later Russia annexed Crimea.”
Actually the people of Crimea petitioned to rejoin Russia. They never wanted to be part of Ukraine. Ukraine illegally annexed Crimea in 1991.
“I fail to see how anyone can plausibly deny this is an instance of blatant imperialist annexation.”
So you deny the people of Crimea agency and the right to rejoin their historic homeland and live free of Nazi aggression? Well, they don’t care what you think.
“It doesn’t matter what the motives were and no one here is defending the actions of the Ukrainian state vis a vis the Russian minorities in Crimea or the Donbas. But the facts speak for themselves.”
No, they don’t. “Facts” can be true or false. Yours fall into the latter category.
“The actions of the Russian state in sending invading forces into another country were technically those of an imperialist power and there is no getting around this.”
No, they were not. Russia tried for eight years to avoid this war. It didn’t want it. It wanted the Minsk Accords 1 and 2 to be respected and worked tirelessly for them to be so. But the Nazis in Ukraine and their handlers in Washington had different ideas. And with that, Robbo’s narrative about Russian imperialism goes up in smoke. Pfft.
“Exterminate…strong emotive language.”
The war started on February 24th because the Ukrainians had built up an invading army of at least 125,000 troops to crush the Donbass militarily and cleanse the oblasts of all ethnic Russians. A devestating Ukrainian artillery bombardment had been in progress for days which was the prelude to the assault. With invasion imminent Donbass authorities entreated Russia for military aid which was granted.
“UN and OSCE figures for the period from 2014 to December 31, 2021 is between 14,200 and 14,400 victims.
According to the U.N., 10,900 victims were soldiers, of which 4,400 were Ukrainians and 6,500 pro-Russian combatants. Most of the deaths took place between 2014 and 2015.”
“Pro Russian combatants”. I see you got the memo regarding the correct NATOstani propaganda sobriquet to be used to describe ethnic Russian Ukrainians of the Donbass. Good boy, a treat for the running dog. Those 6,500 “soldiers” were almost all civilians who’d taken up arms to defend themselves and their families against the fascists. Your designations parrot those of the imperialist warmongers. Bravo!
“Civilian victims were between 3,400 and 3,500. Almost 300 deaths being from the Russian or Separatist militia shooting down of the Malaysian airliner. Many of the other civilian casualties were from mines.”
Responsibility for the shooting down of The Malaysia Airlines flight is contested. Don’t make out otherwise. It’s far more likely that it was shot down by Ukrainian forces.
“Now tell me the number of deaths since the beginning of the invasion.”
The Ukrainians were prevented from carrying out their ethnic cleansing operation so we can only speculate as to how many lives were spared.
“If these figures should be considered extermination and genocide I suggest a look at the wars going on and ignored in Africa as a comparison.”
Genocide is destroying in whole or part a people or their culture. The Ukrainians had already wholly committed to the latter. Indeed it is this latter which has deranged anti-communists such as yourself claiming genocide in Xinjiang. They were just getting warmed up for the former til Russia intervened.
“There is UN definitions of genocide or crimes against humanity that does not equate to killing. Perhaps that is the extermination you refer to. Perhaps you can clarify.”
No, both.
“Were Russian-speakers persecuted?”
Is being murdered by shell fire persecution? If so, yes.
“If Ukraine had joined the EU, its discrimination against Russian-speakers would have been designated as illegal.”
Right, I’m sure the Nazis would have been very respectful of EU discrimination laws. Lol
“The SPGB does know more about Russian history than Putin. We are historical materialists. Putin is a politician, and a nationalist.”
Putin made a fact claim. Knobbo thought it important enough to quote the claim and a refutation of it. So your crap about being a historical materialist means exactly squat. Knobbo is a big boy, he can speak for himself. Why don’t you run along and play some More with your Thomas?
