TrueScotsman
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“Thank you for your response. It seems we found a way to communicate without symmetrical negative retorts.”
I am quite capable of being civil but if there’s a shift in tone I won’t allow an insult to go unanswered.
“I prefer that, it is conducive to discourse. So, thank you.”
I agree.
“Fanatical belief seems systemic in today’s world order. States produce messaging through their ideological state apparatus , having one believe there is a just cause and a matter of principle on either side.”
Sure, but they can’t both be right. You will probably retort that they can both be wrong. And yes, they could. But I don’t believe the Russian state is in the wrong here. As far as I understand it it is the official position of the SPGB that Russia was provoked in to invading Ukraine. If you deliberately provoke someone in to taking an action then they they take that action it seems to me that the provocateur is at fault.
“The Regressive apparatus (Army, Police and traditional forms of power) are simply engaging in a capture of markets.”
That is NATOstan’s motivation, sure. Not Russia’s. For Moscow this is a conflict to prevent the imperialist dismemberment of its state and to birth a new anti-NATOstani coalition to overthrow the “rules based order” of the US hegemon.
“Corporations may not lob a weapon with such crudity in a hostile take over, yet the principle and inter-discursiveness is that… war for market control of a people and its resources. I know you may not see it this way, but this is how it seems to me and many others, but we will not get full recursion on that idea.”
You are correct. I do not see it that way and I believe it an ideological blind-spot of yours that you do.
“The socialist intention is education leading to awareness of our oppression and collective wish for a pro-social society.”
Isn’t praxis the socialist intention?
“Parliament is our only tool- a tool of a class or groups of people alienated from the means of production and anterior to the accumulation of wealth.”
But parliaments are constituted of representatives are they not? How does a leaderless organisation lead?
“It is through democracy that we get a collective will of the social group and change the base/structure (it economic and its ideological articulations).”
It depends what you mean by “democracy”. There are many iterations, some, like the American or British, undifferentiatiable from oligarchy.
“Bodies of our dear brothers and sisters is not the way.”
I believe you’ve misunderstood me. I was inferring protest/civil disobedience not armed resistance.
“That is a barbarism in Rosa Luxemburg’s “socialism or barbarism”.”
“TS, I wonder if you may consider that nationalism and vilification of the Ukraine is the narrative Russian state officials are using to legitimise the war.”
I don’t believe you are familiar with Russian media. They do not vilify Ukraine. Russians love Ukraine. Moscow is very specific. They blame this conflict on
NATO and the Nazis maneuvered into power through the Maidan regime change operation/coup.“Wonder if you might consider the sub narrative (aside narrative) might be the capture of markets to compete against the Western economies- increasing their economic base through annexation to retain a larger relevancy against OECD blocks.”
Except that Moscow did everything within its power to avoid the conflict continually calling for the implementation of Minsk 2. We know Minsk was a charade, thanks to Merkel and Yanukovych, meant to string along the Russians and buy time for the Nazi proxies in Kiev to rearm. This is incontrovertible evidence of western, not Russian, duplicity. Russia wanted peace not a costly war for “markets”. Again, I believe this is an ideological blind-spot of yours.
“Time is money: war is money.”
Pithy but in no way does it advance understanding of this conflict.
“Stay safe and thank you for your challenges, it assist focus a point of view, even if you might not share it..”
I believe you are focused on a mistaken point of view. One arrived at through ideology rather than evidence. But, as Swift said, “You cannot reason someone out of something he or she was not reasoned into.”
“maybe at times it may lead to concurring: like socialism or barbarism.”
Maybe.
“Socialism or barbarity… that we can agree.
An improvement of sorts.”
It’s an undeniable fact.
“The prediction of use of nuclear weapons made my heart thud!
This is a localised oligarchic division for the competing interests of a small and powerful social group… I believe that nuclear options work against their interests, seizing the market, and not blowing it all up!”
I disagree with your framing but agree most oligarchs want to preserve their wealth and don’t wish it, along with themselves, vaporised by the heat of a thousand suns. Thus the likes of Elon Musk are calling for peace. Problem is, there is a powerful group of neo-con ideologues running US foreign policy. They are delusional fanatics. The fate of the world is literally in the hands of a small group of delusional fanatics who believe Russia is just one step up the escalation ladder from complete defeat. But Russia is not. Russia is winning.
“I admire your dislike and hope that it never eventuates into nuclear.”
It’s up to the people of Europe to start putting their bodies in front of weapons shipments. If they’re serious about avoiding a nuclear war this is a good place to start.
“I always thought Russia was in Europe.”
As much as Turkey is. Turkey Europe too? Kamchatka also Europe? The Europeans certainly don’t consider Russia part of Europe. No invitation to join the EU or NATO. You’re
a Clown. But not funny. Except in the head. Lol“A year on from the initial invasion and TS still hails the success of Putin’s army, that has been reduced to the use of convicts to fight in the front lines.”
Erm, and the 300,000 newly mobilised plus 180,000 new volunteers? All convicts are they? You are an ideologue All-in, not a materialist. Evidence, out the window. You’re a direct mouth piece for Ukrainian intelligence now.
“One year from now, TS will be still parroting the Kremlin’s propaganda that the 2024 offensive will be the decisive breakthrough.”
Let’s bet on it then. Loser donates 100 pounds to a charity of their choice.
“Once again, to remind TS, none of Putin’s supposed war aims have been achieved”
Liberation of Donbass by August (if Scott Ritter is to be believed), demilitarization and denazification proceeding at speed. It takes a long time to wipe out Europe’s largest military.
“no matter how much TS tries to sugar it.”
I’ve never sugar coated anything. I’m just reporting the facts as I see them.
“There are those of us here who seek an immediate ceasefire even if it means the price of peace is giving up territory.”
Sure but the Nazis and their NATOstani handlers aren’t among them.
“It matters little to us if Putin is ‘rewarded’ with the territory his army presently occupies, the Crimea and parts of the Donbas.”
That’s because you’re safely tucked away in Britain free of the constant fear of Nazi shelling. The Russian speaking people of formerly eastern Ukraine feel differently.
“Out of an army half a million strong, that’s a spit in the Ocean”
Ukraine’s military has around that many members true but most of those are pencil pushers, truck drivers, mechanics, etc. Actual frontline troops is barely a fraction of that. Ukrainian losses are catastrophic and getting worse. I’m hearing a kill ratio of 15:1.
“again, look at the precedents, the Iran Iraq War, the Korean War: humans are sadly replaceable.”
Apples and oranges. The world of war is very different today.
“Yes, the precedents of prolonged attritional trench war is that one side will break in the rear, after horrific carnage, but that might not come soon.”
The Ukrainians are in the trenches not the Russians. (Though they have built solid defensive lines in rear areas). The Russians batter them with rockets and artillery til they’re shattered then move in with tanks and infantry, rinse and repeat. Almost all ground being taken is by Russia. The two big Ukrainian offensives were total disasters and though they took some territory it was a result of withdrawal not defeat and Russian casualties were light.
“And, don’t forget, Kyiv is basically pawning its future here into economic dependence on Europe, it will get the logistical supplies it needs not to break like that.”
Rubbish. NATO resolve is already crumbling and weapons shipments down to a paltry , photo-op dribble.
“If it’s a fair fight then both sides weary. This is not a fair fight.
There are still costs, even if unevenly distributed. Russia has, on paper, far more military resources, but it has to keep a lot in reserve to protect it’s own territory. It’s supply lines are in a hostile environment, and need to be protected.
Materiel can be replaced, simple destruction is inefficient, NATO has deeper pockets than Moscow.”
Doesn’t matter. Russia has been preparing for this conflict for years and has the infrastructure and supply chains in place to keep this war going til the end. NATO doesn’t. It’ll take several years to a decade to create the industries at scale. Ukraine has about one.
“Cutting the Polish border would also need to cut the Romanian and Moldovan borders: which would be come with severe supply line problems, and would just open the Russians to be being bled by guerrilla warfare.”
Which is probably why they won’t do it. My point was, they could.
“I’ll just note that Bakhmut has not yet fallen”
It’s literally days away now. Even the MSM can deny it no longer.
“a town with about the population of Redcar (not a huge city) has taken this long to fall”
The civilian population size is irrelevant. The Ukrainians spent 8 years turning it into a fortress and funneled huge numbers of personnel into the area. Some 10,000 are currently almost surrounded. Ukraine’s army, thanks to NATO, is the most powerful in Europe. Russia has already destroyed two iterations of it and is now working on the third. Sands through the hour glass. Ukraine’s loss is inevitable.
“It seems as if you reject the concept that there can exist a capitalist mode of production without the capitalist class, where a party bureaucracy can substitute for private owners and collectively own and control the means of production.”
That is how idealogues posing as socialists describe actually existing socialist societies. They should be ignored.
“It also appears that you believe that there is a transitional society called a ‘workers state’ that is non-exploitative and acts in the interests of working people, sometimes labelled ‘socialism’ or a ‘people’s democracy’, which is not capitalism but not yet communism.”
Yes. Because socialism does not erupt spontaneously and cannot defend its gains against violent reaction otherwise. Only an idealogue and false socialist would believe otherwise.
“I refer you to our Party tweet that Fox News reported.”
And I refer to your “party’s” record of dismal failure.
“If we can agree that in all countries of the world today, the dominant economic system is capitalism, whether the fictitious “free enterprise” or mixed “command” economy”
We don’t agree. In China capitalism is not in charge. It plays its role in the development of the forces of production but the Chinese state is not a vehicle for maximising the interests of the capitalist class. You are not a socialist, you are an idealogue. Your opinions about what is or is not “socialism” are of no value to socialists.
“what is the inherent common quality of such society?
The Marxist would say it is the profit-motive, the accumulation of capital that is driven by the expansion and growth of the market.”
China is run by Marxists as is Vietnam, Cuba and Laos. The leaders of all these countries disagree that the profit motive is inherent to their societies. It is a temporary and necessary stage on their road to communism.
“If all nation-states are subject to this imperative, regardless of intent, they will inevitably come into conflict with others.”
The above mentioned countries are not subject to this “imperative”. Their imperative is development and the building of socialism.
“There can be no win-win.”
Says the man who claims he has no crystal ball. Found it did you? Why should we pay any attention to you? You can’t even figure out what’s going on in the biggest conflict to hit Europe since WW2.
“For one national capitalist class to succeed and thrive, its rivals must lose.”
Not true as you say yourself.
“Not necessarily immediately as we see both the US and China can increase their trade and reach a certain amount of mutual benefit from their imports and exports, offshoring and out-sourcing factories.”
China’s capitalist class does not rule China. They are developing the forces of production and their population for communism.
“Just this week despite the increased military tension and a trade war commerce between US and China reached a new record – $690.6bn (£572.6bn)”
Indeed. Not likely to last long though.
“But in the long run, competition will intensify and national capitalists, the nation’s corporate interests and what Marx called its executive committee, a country’s government, will engage in economic warfare, as we see happening with those industries facing a direct challenge are protected by the government tariffs.”
Marx was not around to write about the behaviour of a socialist government.
“Of course, there is an internecine phase where Big Business squabbles over the taxes paid (or more often than not avoided and evaded) and both US and China have had corporations reined in by the government in recent years.”
Taxes do not fund federal government spending.
“The economic war to preserve and expand one’s market is also played out on the world stage as we see in Africa, client-states being fought over to capture raw materials and resources.”
China is not “fighting” anyone in Africa.
“Another aspect to consider. One of the assumptions of Brexit was that the UK could win new business agreements with non-EU countries but the reality was that by not having the leverage of a strong trading bloc, the UK has lost out on negotiating advantageous terms for itself even with so-called allies such as the USA and Commonwealth countries. There is no loyalty to be expected from supposed friends in business. The UK GDP has fallen because of Brexit.”
Britain’s ruling class is as dumb as a sack of hammers but then so is that of the continent. They’re running their respective countries into the ground. Good. Once they’ve lost their legitimacy they can be overthrown. But don’t expect any members of the SPGB to be manning the barricades.
“I began by saying that capitalism can be identified by its need to make profits for its owners, whether private investors or state-bureaucrats.”
A false dichotomy from a false socialist. Socialist governments use the profits for development and emancipation from want.
“Marx’s achievement was in revealing the source of profits – the surplus-value extracted from the unpaid portion of the worker’s labour-power.
If the Labour Theory of Value is true there can also be no win-win for the employee. That is why wage labour is described as legalised robbery by all Marxists.”
No, only if the employer is a capitalist.
“There is no fair pay. It is the reason why Marxists say that all wealth is created not by entrepreneurship but by labour. We are robbed regardless of whether we work for a privatised company or a nationalised one.”
You twist the words. There is fair pay in a government run by socialists.
“But to answer the question, socialism or barbarism? , if a nuclear war doesn’t get us, climate change will.”
Something we agree on.
“And that is another direct consequence of capitalism’s greed for profit.”
We agree there too. But that’s no reason to give up the struggle. We’re all gonna die anyway. Heck, even the universe has a used by date.
“Do you agree or disagree: it is either socialism or barbarism?
Starting the topic again with more civil tones.”I agree it is socialism or barbarism but I do not agree with your framing of the conflict as one of competing capitalisms. It is of a global empire in decline against an emerging multi-polar order led by Russia and China. What is taking place is a tectonic shift of power away from the imperial core countries to the rest of the world. The new order will be fundamentally different from the old because imperialism will no longer be its animating drive.
The new world that is emerging will be based on win-win economic relations rather than naked aggression, coups and ruthless exploitation. Socialism will have breathing space to thrive in this new environment but only if the US and the other core imperialist counties (Europe. Australia/New Zealand, Japan and Singapore) are defeated in their ambitions to maintain the status quo.
The barbarism dial is about to be turned up to 11 with it now appearing almost certain there will be war between the US and its clients with China within the next 5 years. Frankly, I don’t see how a nuclear exchange can be avoided but that’s just too horrible to contemplate.
“More drivel from TS who continues to comprehensively miss the point as per usual…”
L.B. Neill care to rein in your mutt? Thought not.
“It is frankly irrelevant from the standpoint of this forum whether Russia is winning this war, whether decisively or otherwise.”
Actually it’s very important because it puts into question your claims to be materialists and therefore Marxists. If you are nothing but ideolougues confirming your own biases through MSM rags and CIA front groups then you are not materialists. And therefore not Marxists. But we already knew that didn’t we?
““Decisively” is not a word that springs to mind, though. The small territorial gains the Russian military and its mercenary supporters have recently made to offset territorial losses it suffered last year, have come at an enormous cost and the battle for Bahkmut is still not over after months and months of fighting.”
Because you are not a materialist you do not understand the nature of this conflict. The Russians are atritting the Ukrainians. The taking of territory is a secondary consideration. It is why the Russians have withdrawn from unfavourable positions to better demilitarize NATOstan. Because you are not a materialist you interpret this as a loss. But nothing could be further from the truth.
“Yes, we know there is more to this war than just territory and TS continues in his pointless endeavor to teach his grandmother to suck eggs.”
No, you are incapable of learning the facts because you are an ideologue not a materialist. My posts are meant to inform those who are actually materialists.
“Sure Russia´s population (and military) is substantially larger than Ukraine´s and you would expect, all things being equal, for the former to prevail over the latter. Although all things are not equal and it would seem that morale and determination would favour the Ukrainian side.”
It would seem so if you were an idealogue. It doesn’t seem so to a materialist.
“At any rate, it is difficult to predict the outcome of the war if for no other reason than that we cannot rule out completely the possibility of NATO forces being drawn directly into the conflict.”
Russia would still win. It has full escalatory dominance on its own border.
“In that case, we are talking about a whole different ball game. The Russian military would be comprehensively destroyed in that case”
No, NATOstan would be.
“but, if things went nuclear, we would all be destroyed”
Newsflash: water still wet, fire still hot! You are special Robbo, just not in the way you think.
“But all this is by the by. The real issue here is what should be the attitude of socialists to this stupid senseless war?”
But you’re not a socialist so why do you care?
“TS has made it perfectly plain that he fervently sides with Russian capitalism in this war.”
Erm no, I don’t. I side with the struggle against NATOstani imperialism.
“Laughably, this clown goes on about “faux socialists”, having demonstrated again and again his vehement opposition to socialism which he doesn’t really understand anyway given that he seems to think the state sector of the capitalist economy amounts to “socialism”.”
That state sector wouldn’t exist were it not for the struggles of actual socialists.
“This war is a war being fought over capitalist interests as TS himself has inadvertently revealed”
No, I have not. Russia did not want this conflict. NATO and the Ukrainian Nazis did. Well, by their attempted genocide of Russian speaking eastern Ukrainians they have forever given up their right to rule there. This cofluct would have proceeded no matter the wealth or lack thereof of the territory involved.
“– with himself identifying strongly with the interests of Russian capitalism and its appalling far-right repressive capitalist regime”
I don’t think “far right” means what you think it means. Back to materialism school for you.
“against the equally appalling far-right repressive capitalist regime of Ukraine (both sides of which have their own fascist supporters).”
Blah, blah, blah. Heard it all before.
“Whoever “wins” this war, the workers on both sides will have lost.”
Nope. The world’s workers win if the NATOstani empire is defeated.
“And that, TS, is the real issue we should be focussing on here – not looking upon this sordid conflict from the dehumanized perspective of some parody of an armchair military strategist who whiles away his time scouring the web for conspiracy sites”
Like the conspiracy about the US blowing up Nordstream 2? That conspiracy? Lol
“to lend support to his perverse bourgeois-nationalist take on the world.”
Word salad. Lol
“In a battle for a city, the customary rule is that it is the attacker who suffers the heavier casualties, not the defenders. I see no evidence that the battle for Bahkmut should be any different.”
Erm, except that your assumption isn’t true.
“The United States was behind the sabotage of the Nord Stream pipeline system last year”
Fancy that. Just as I had said. I believe I was ridiculed by some for saying as much. Apologies accepted.
“however, even inching over into Bakhmut after a five month fight is hardly the sound of a resounding victory”
You don’t see it as a victory because you don’t understand the nature of the conflict. Russia’s main goal is demilitarization. To do this one does not need to take ground one needs to kill the enemy and destroy his ability to further make war. This Russia is doing with ruthless efficiency. Ukraine has lost 6,500 KIAs just this January, mostly in Bhakmut.
“attrition wearies both sides.”
If it’s a fair fight then both sides weary. This is not a fair fight.
“Unlike WWI Germany, Ukraine cannot be cut off.”
Actually it could with a thrust from Belorus down along the Polish border. But Russia seems happy enough to allow NATO to continue demilitarizing itself by sending its war material to be reduced to molten slag.
“It is hardly likely that pro-Putin sources (the only ones TD will accept) would acknowledge the connection with ultra-nationalist, neo-Nazi fascists.”
Lol. Don’t you know Putin actually loves Nazis? You know, the people who killed his brother along with up to 40 million other of his countrymen and laid waste to his country? You know how I know this? Because a bunch of spineless, careerist lowlifes from western academe sayed it so!
You are not a materialist All-in you are an idealogue. You care not a jot for evidence. Not a Marxist you but a useful gimp for the status quo. A confirmation bias seeking automaton. Lol
“Ukrainian forces plan to launch a Summer counter-offensive when they have been strengthened and proceed to cut off Crimea and re-occupy it at the price of the territory conceded at Donbas.”
The delusions of a fantasist.
“But it is speculation. Nobody has prophetic powers regardless of TS’s claim of prediction.”
If an MMA fighter gets into a bout with a 3rd grader one can make an exceedingly accurate prediction about who will win.
“Enough!
You have belittled. You have engaged in derogatory and violent remarks throughout this debate.”
Erm, ok dad. Loving the dumby spit. May I remind you that I never set the tone of this discussion? It was members on this site who did. I have been ridiculed and insulted from my very first post here as has anyone else who deviates from your anti-socialist faux Marxism. Thing is, I don’t mind getting dirty and rolling in the mud. Perhaps you should share your admonitions around a bit more fairly to include members of the home team such as Bojo’s half baked Brains and Knobbo? I still won’t take your screed seriously but at least I’ll respect the consistency.
“What I do know is that if a person seems to have no empirical ‘verifiable’ facts to back up their position and challenged: they devolve into base and disruptive behaviour.”
I know you’re not talking about me because I consistently provide evidence for my assertions.
“Near fascist actions”
Hyperbole much? Lol
“you might say, they devolve into vitriol and verbal violence as the last line of defense.”
When pointing the finger at someone, three are pointed back
at you. Anyone who fails to take the correct anti-socialist line on this site is ruthlessly pilloried. Just ask Lizzie or me.“My empirical verifiable evidence for this conclusion: most of your above posts.”
Wawawa! You sound like a baby.
“You base your commentary on nothing more than aggression as a signifier of being right.”
Nope, I base my conclusions on verifiable evidence. The tone was set by other members on this thread way before I ever showed up. You want a more collegiate tone, throw out members like Bojo’s Brain and Knobbo. Til then, you get a shit show.
“Settle down and engage in adult debate.”
I’ve tried on multiple occasions even suggesting an end to all name calling. All-in insisted that the name calling should continue.
“Some of us want to debate, put some views across and learn.”
Yeah? Well plenty of you don’t. Go back and read some of the insults directed at me by other participants.
“But you suck the oxygen, like a vacuum bomb, right out of the place…”
Don’t like the heat? Get outa the kitchen.
“making it awkward for some of us to discuss it without being harassed.”
Oh, you poor darling. You gonna crumple like a dried wall flower if someone slings a bit of mud your way? The tone was set way before I ever arrived.
“Demonstrate you are not an apex clown of the lower order”
Lol. Pot meet kettle. What a joke.
“debate not degrade!”
He says after degrading. You do see what you just did there right? The hypocrisy is priceless.
“Your behaviour sounds close to oppressive and more like fascist techniques!”
More tone setting. How do you think I’m going to react to being called a fascist? I suggest a bit of introspection. Clown.
“Does your behaviour represent Russian aggression and the attitudes toward tensions… perhaps.”
Huh? What’s Russia got to do with anything? If someone insults me, I insult back. It’s as simple as that.
“If your attitude is systemic of what is fueling the war: then it gives us some insight into colonial and imperial causal factors.”
Gobbledygook.
“If you do not want to use verifiable data, then least we can use your cognition as the data in itself.”
I use nothing but. Seen me quoting from the CIA lately? No, that would be Alan or Bojo.
“Take a bloody good look at yourself!
Enough!”
Wawawawa!
