[stuartw2112]

Consistency and sticking to my guns was never my strong point. Last time I passed this way I swore never to say another word here ever again. But boredom with wage-slavery is a stronger force than a resolution made in anger.And just imagine how delighted I was when, driven here by sheer boredom, I find that I'm being quoted and talked about. What a boost to my flagging ego! Thank you very much comrades. The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about, as they say.I see logic is still not Alan's strong point however. My early (and continuing) enthusiasm for the Left Unity project is in no way contradicted by my intemperate and rude comments about certain members (I was not calling them Stalinist – simply pointing out that calling them Stalinist is every bit as ridiculous as labelling everything they disagree with "Tory"). Alan may remember that I combined enthusiasm and support for the SPGB with extremely rude comments about him….Ho hum, all water under the bridge. I was disappointed that the motion for citizen's income failed, but it was not "mine" as Adam claimed – it was moved by another member of my local branch. But since there is as Adam said a democratic structure, it may well pass yet. That's if the whole thing doesn't ossify into yet another boring old left party. Which it may yet do – a great opportunity for all the stopped clocks in the world to yet again declare what the time is.All the bestStuart

[stuartw2112]

Just in case there's anyone left in this braindead organisation who is actually interested in socialist politics, and who is capable of reasoned argument without resorting to snideness and sarcasm and cynicism and stupidity, and on the offchance that they're reading this discussion and are interested in what the actual arguments are, rather than in a load of offensive drivel and horseshit, here are the three best articles I know of making the case I would try to make here if anyone here was interested in actual debate:http://leftunity.org/which-way-for-left-unity-the-case-for-the-left-party-platform/http://leftunity.org/for-what-its-worth-my-thoughts-on-left-unity-and-the-platform-debate/http://www.leninology.com/2013/10/theses-on-austerity-and-how-to-fight-it.htmlIf you'd like to discuss further, please email me, not this list, as I won't be poisoning my mind or wasting my time with this forum or this party ever again:stuartrag@yahoo.co.ukStuart

[stuartw2112]

Hmm, the truce didn't last long did it? Should have known better than to try a reasonable conversation.

[stuartw2112]

Ed, I've just realised that you must have got your opinion of LU from the recent Socialist Standard article on it. Sorry, but that is totally misleading. I have no problem with the socialist platform people being in LU – indeed I am friendly with a fair few of them – but to portray them as the bold socialist visionaries fighting a lone if misguided battle against the opportunists and reformists is just a joke – the kind of joke we Adam and I just agreed to leave behind. Cheers

[stuartw2112]

For reasons beyond me, I can't paste a link to the relevant statement. Go to Leftunity.org, then platform statements menu, then Left Party Platforms Aims statement piece. 

[stuartw2112]

Alan – no, I wrote that, didn't I? I didn't write any of the platform statements.

[stuartw2112]

Ps Ed you've also misunderstood the whole thing. I am not a supporter of the 'socialist platform' and do not consider them at all the radical wing of the thing.

[stuartw2112]

Jools – hear hear

[stuartw2112]

Ed, you've not answered my points, but refused them. Left Unity is an attempt to form a new socialist party. So, that socialist party will not live up to all your expectations. Welcome to the real world. The spgb doesn't live up to mine. But, given the seriousness of the current situation, is there a way forward for socialists, and for the working class? That's what we're discussing. The 'Ukip of the left' thing was not invented by us and should not be taken too seriously or literally. But are we aiming to do what Ukip is aiming to do and drag the nation's common sense back to the left? Yes – that's the mimimum programme. Although, as I've pointed out before, these are just my views. LU as yet has no aims and no policy. It's in formation.

[stuartw2112]

PS I'd like an answer to two points raised above if anyone's interested in continuing the discussion.The first is the dismissal of Left Unity as a non-socialist organisation. I posted a statement from the Left Party Platform – the statement of aims that will probably (in my opinion) win the day at the founding conference. It contains a definition of socialism and a commitment to attaining it that I can't see any socialist objecting to. So, LU will be a socialist party when it is founded (the rival aims statements are no less clear in their definitions and commitment).The second was my attempt at humour regarding the SPGB's founding conference. I was joking but trying to make a serious point. All the criticisms levelled at Left Unity, and considered to be witheringly damning, could easily have been levelled at the SPGB founding conference. So what's the difference? Why does the SPGB not instead welcome LU and send it fraternal greetings, as I believe it did the Second International? (Not that I think it a foregone conclusion that we'll be that significant, of course, but it's surely not completely beyond the bounds of possibility either.)Cheers

[stuartw2112]

Jools: John Crump? That sounds like the kind of thing that should be reprinted and circulated?

[stuartw2112]

Alan, Adam and I agreed a ceasefire on the banter. Care to join us?!

[stuartw2112]

I realise of course that I'm handing you a stick to beat me with here, but this is the best summary I know of the kind of "programme" I support:http://www.leninology.com/2013/10/theses-on-austerity-and-how-to-fight-it.html

[stuartw2112]

I'd say the opposite: the sleep of reformism brings forth monsters. If "experience" shows anything, it is surely that the defeat of the workers' movement from the 70s on has led to the present situation – which is a colossal disaster for workers, who are getting less and less of the crumbs, and are facing a return to 19th century capitalism. It seems Marx was right: that if you allow capitalism to work as it "should", the result will be an ever-worsening disaster for workers. Left Unity does not yet have a programme, nor has it advocated any reforms. If there is a zeitgeist in the organisation, however, it is that what is needed is as big a movement as possible to resist austerity (the destruction of the welfare state and the impoverishment of workers and the poor generall) – the People's Assembly – and a political party to represent the unrepresented, organise the unorganised – Left Unity. And that this new party may or may not be many things – to be determined – but that it will be open, inclusive, democratic, socialist, environmentalist, feminist, anti-racist. You may say these things aren't possible. But if nott, neither is socialism. Marx and Engels argued along much the same lines. Though whether they did or not doesn't much interest me. If anything, my current position is "the movement is everything, the goal nothing". Without the movement, we ain't going nowhere.Cheers

[stuartw2112]

ALB wrote:

stuartw2112 wrote:

With your silly mudslinging and sectarianism, you are, as usual, missing a trick.

It was your sneering in your first post in this exchange that invited replies in kind:

stuartw2112 wrote:

we've already come further than you have – and you've had a 110 year head start.

If you want a serious discussion on which way forward, you need to stop doing this.

I thought I was just joining in with the joking and the banter, with the kind of language that seemed appropriate. If I misread everyone's intentions, then I apologise.

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