SocialistPunk
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Hi EdPost #27
alanjohnstone wrote:I think what you would like to see, SP, is an example of local activism which would be the Independent Working Class Association centred around Oxford who successfully managed to build up a local power base and gained council seats. The project fizzled out due to the fact that reformists cannot run capitalism in the interests of our class.Maybe Alex and myself read more into Alans words than he meant, but they seemed to suggest I advocate a socialist run council, trying to make the system work for the people.Sorry if I'm the one who's got it wrong!I'll give the matter of elected socialists some thought and get back to you later. I'm a bit tired now.
Ed wrote:Sorry but the vast majority of the world's population is wrong about capitalism. This includes the left. This of course does not mean that the party are the only genuine socialists but we are significantly different than all the rest. You seem to be suggesting that we change our position to pander to popular opinion and abandon scientific socialism.Ed,I do believe you are aware that I know that capitalism is a vile, inhuman system. That most people born and indoctrinated into it fail to see its gross, illogical entirety.I am not suggesting the party change it's position to that of popularism. I am trying to suggest ways of connecting with people in order the real socialist movement reaches more people. I wholeheartedly agree that the WSM is different than the rest, it is after all, why I joined all those years ago. It is also why I bother to engage with this forum. I want the SPGB and WSM to grow stronger and attract more genuine socialists.
Ed wrote:On a local level I could specifically name what three branches are currently doing right now to reach out to their local communities and that's not even including the stuff that comes up during the year like stalls and local trade union festivals and so on.I would genuinely like you to give me details. I think it important that such efforts are shared, it may help others. If I am barking up the wrong tree, I am not afraid to admit it. I would love to be shown wrong, as it would suggest things are on the up for real socialism.So far all I am getting are false accusations leveled at me for daring to suggest all is not going well.
ALB wrote:You are wrong to sympathise with Socialist Punk's position here. It is simply untrue and reinforces the caricature of our position put forward by our opponents and which our members have to combat all the time on other internet forums. It's a bit disappointing to have to do it here too.When have we opposed and attacked workers in struggles to get what they can out of capitalism just because, for instance, they are trying to get higher wages or trying to stop their conditions getting worse, rather than the abolition of the wages system altogether? Socialist Punk will be unable to produce a single case of this.All I said was.
SocialistPunk wrote:You may not like it, but the cliche of winning hearts and minds is vital if the WSM wish to connect with people. Over a hundred years have passed and the SPGB is probably the smallest it has ever been. There is so much anger and frustration out there, yet the party is failing to tap into it. I suggest that no stone is left unturned in that attempt.If the attempt to connect with others, when an invitation is offered, is ignored and labeled as "Insubstantial gestures" and "cynical opportunism", then it is a sorry day indeed for the WSM. I wish it all the luck for the next 100 years. It will need it!Is the SPGB doing fine? Is the membership growing or dwindling? If it is growing then prove it and shut me up, I really would prefer that option. If it is dwindling, then it is time to pull heads out of the sand and look for solutions.Surely if others see the SPGB as aloof and distant, then the thing to do is ask, "why"?Time to put the "science" in scientific socialism to the test.
Alex Woodrow wrote:It's fair enough you are question SocialistPunk's views, though SP has not expressed any reformist views so why are you trying to make out that SP is reformist?Thanks for the support Alex, much appreciated.I in no way advocate any kind of reformism. Attempts to tar me with that brush are juvenile. I am simply trying to thrash out an approach the WSM could take, that makes positive connections with people. I don't have all the answers, no one does. But what I do know and am not afraid to point out, is that so far things are not going so well in that department, for the SPGB. I see little progress from when I was in the North East branch, in the nineties. I am in no way suggesting that SPGB councilors will lead the way into a socialist future. The first SPGB councilor would be shut down by the mainstream politicians protecting the controlling party doctrine and their nest eggs. But like Alex, I see the future of socialism taking off at the local community level. The pieces will not slip into place with propaganda alone. Do any socialists seriously think a switch will one day flip to the "revolution on" position in most peoples brains as a product of propaganda? Somehow the WSM needs to find a way to connect to everyday people. To help to empower people.Most political election manifestos end up in the bin. Why would the SPGB ones see a different fate if not backed up by some sort of worked at trust, at a local level?
alanjohnstone wrote:We are socialists not social workers. If we engage in that within the community socialist activitiy will be subsumed.John Bissett was very active in his neighbourhood yet I recall his disappointment when it did not transfer into votes.I would like to ask what activity, and what good is such "socialist activity", if it is not getting across the message effectively after over 100 years? Please keep in mind I was heavily involved in all branch activity during my time in the party.I knew John Bisset when I was in the North East branch, he was a good guy, passionate, committed, but he was alone in his local area. It is why I was specific in saying any local activity aimed at gaining trust must be undertaken with full party support. One or two party members working as hard as they can, find themselves overwhelmed and exhausted with the sheer volume of effort required, year on year. Does the "scientific" in WSM socialism apply to the practice of bringing socialism into existence or only to the analysis of the failings of capitalism?
£5000 is a lot of money for the SPGB to lose, on a hit and run election.During the last general election the conservatives spent over £16,000,000, labour £8,000,000 and lib dems over £4.000,000.Don't get me wrong, such exposure for the party is good. TV and radio I presume? But it needs to be followed up continually to make a real impact, otherwise it just gets drowned out by the mainstream and over time becomes a party historical talking point. Can the SPGB afford such continual payouts to buy exposure, like the mainstream parties? Concentrate on building local support by being a force for socialist democracy in as many local communities as possible. Show people what real socialist democracy is. It will take time and a lot of hard work, but has a better chance of paying off in the long run than the odd big election here and there.
ALB wrote:TheOldGreyWhistle wrote:I have a great deal of sympathy with this, the SPGB tends to attack and put down any working class action that does not seek to abolish the wages system. It gives out the wrong message. The SPGB correctly has as its only aim the establishment of socialism but this should not put us in opposition to workers struggles.You are wrong to sympathise with Socialist Punk's position here. It is simply untrue and reinforces the caricature of our position put forward by our opponents and which our members have to combat all the time on other internet forums. It's a bit disappointing to have to do it here too.When have we opposed and attacked workers in struggles to get what they can out of capitalism just because, for instance, they are trying to get higher wages or trying to stop their conditions getting worse, rather than the abolition of the wages system altogether? Socialist Punk will be unable to produce a single case of this.You yourself realise that Punk's position is a caricature because you end up saying that we should not oppose such struggles but should express sympathy with them while always raising the need to abolish capitalism. Which we always do, quite apart from individual members being active trade unionists or the like. I daresay you were yourself in the days of the old Seaham branch.
Not sure what I have done to warrant this, as I do not believe I have accused the SPGB of standing against workers struggles wherever they may be. I think ALB should have read my posts in full, before accusing me, in the highlighted paragraph above.My point is, the party is failing to tap into the frustration that is out there in the real world. Part of that failure is due to an aloof stance. It comes across a bit like the old saying "everyone is marching out of step, except our…..party".Sometimes simple gestures, can have a powerful effect on how others perceive us as individuals or groups. But it looks like ALB sees them as mere "caricatures", with no use. No aloof stance there then?Sorry if it is a little uncomfortable ALB, but it wouldn't take too much energy for the SPGB to reach out and try to make friends every once in a while. Go ahead and slag me off for daring to suggest it, but you are missing the point entirely.
100% with you there Alex.There is little point in contesting Euro elections without building any base support. May as well go around with fake smiles, shaking hands and kissing babies etc.Building local trust, and contesting local elections is the way forward. The WSM needs to show democratic socialism in action.
Alex Woodrow wrote:So, I have been thinking. If we, the Socialist Party of Great Britain, want to do well in elections, then I think it would be wise not to stand in any constituencies in the next few years but, instead, concentrate on Town, Parish, Borough, District and County Council seats. The reason I say this is because people often see parties who focus more on parliamentary seats rather than council seats as being career parties, rather than parties that stick to their principles. So this is why I think we should only stand at local level for the next few years, because if we stand in, let's say, many Town and Parish council seats then people will start to see that we are not in it for the money like all of the other political partires, but that we do actually care about the people and want to bring REAL change. Also, if we stand at local level, we can communicate more with ordinary people than what the capitalist elite will ever be able to, hence we will be able to get our message of people power democracy across to the masses if we get elected Town and Parish councillors. Though anyway this is all just a thought, and I would be grateful to hear anyone elses view on this matter.It is good to see some reference to gaining the trust of real people, by using local democracy.The aim of the SPGB is to use established electoral democracy in order that the majority can take control away from capitalism effectively and peacefully. If such a democratic approach is taken, votes are needed. Obviously we want votes from those who understand they are voting to empower themselves. So how do we persuade the majority of workers that a vote for the WSM is a vote for themselves?The answer as far as I can see, is what Alex has touched upon and what Steve is aiming for. The WSM has to find ways within local communities to connect with people, to build trust. It will not be easy and it will not be quick. And it can only be done effectively with full party support.This issue is the most important thing the SPGB have to offer, that could begin to make a real difference. There is still hope.
Here we go for the second time.
TheOldGreyWhistle wrote:I have a great deal of sympathy with this, the SPGB tends to attack and put down any working class action that does not seek to abolish the wages system.OGW is spot on. Both he and Steve made some good points about this earlier.It need not take up too much time and energy for the SPGB and WSM to voice support on these kinds of issues. It may eventually lead to our movement being taken seriously by more people. What a shock that might be to some!
Ed wrote:SocialistPunk wrote:ALB wrote:It seems that the ex-Muslims have got things well in hand on their front. Good luck to them.So much for solidarity.I expect rejecting any religion that you were born into is a big life changing commitment, and may see such individuals more open to real socialist ideas. If contact showing solidarity and support is not attempted how can the WSM expect to make any inroads with sections of the working class that may be more immediately open to an alternative to the misery that is thrown up by a controlling minority, of religious, political or economic minded control freaks.Good luck to the WSM.
So we should sign it in solidarity? Or to try to take advantage of their desperate situation in the hope of converting a few people?Insubstantial gestures or cynical opportunism.
Hi EdI had already considered the fact such gestures could be seen as opportunist. The link for this threads original invitation regarding women in the labour movement, shows potential evidence of left wing opportunism. But post 19 on this thread says the statement regarding Amina was sent to the SPGB.
Socialist Party… wrote:Communication received at Head Office by email:That means the SPGB are being invited to show solidarity for Amina. She is a member of our class is she not, her problem is our problem?I am merely suggesting the SPGB show a gesture of support, when asked. If the party is willing to show it is listening to others then perhaps those others may at some point start listening to what the SPGB are saying. It won't happen overnight, but it will not happen at all if the party remain intellectually aloof all the time.You may not like it, but the cliche of winning hearts and minds is vital if the WSM wish to connect with people. Over a hundred years have passed and the SPGB is probably the smallest it has ever been. There is so much anger and frustration out there, yet the party is failing to tap into it. I suggest that no stone is left unturned in that attempt.If the attempt to connect with others, when an invitation is offered, is ignored and labelled as "Insubstantial gestures" and "cynical opportunism", then it is a sorry day indeed for the WSM. I wish it all the luck for the next 100 years. It will need it!
ALB wrote:It seems that the ex-Muslims have got things well in hand on their front. Good luck to them.So much for solidarity.I expect rejecting any religion that you were born into is a big life changing commitment, and may see such individuals more open to real socialist ideas. If contact showing solidarity and support is not attempted how can the WSM expect to make any inroads with sections of the working class that may be more immediately open to an alternative to the misery that is thrown up by a controlling minority, of religious, political or economic minded control freaks.Good luck to the WSM.
Jonathan Chambers wrote:S.Punk asks me what I want this forum to be. He like simple answers, does S.Punk. Demands them, even. Can't help him there. And anyway, what I want is inconsequential. It's a fucking internet forum, for Marx's sake! Never going to be anything more than that. The revolution won't be starting here. You might get a few people getting interested in the case for socialism by writing stuff on here and elsewhere online – I can justifiably claim that at least two people on the planet are now socialists as an indirect result of shit that I've written online – but there are limits to the medium.I do like simple answers actually. It is what attracted me to the SPGB in the first place when I was a teenager. All around me, from the media, politicians, teachers and religious leaders, I heard people spewing complicated waffle about the problems that faced society, poverty, starvation, needless disease, war, racial hatred, with little in the way of actual solutions.The Socialist Standard cut through the bullshit and got straight to the point.The supporters of capitalism like to give complicated definitions and answers, designed to confuse. By contrast, how complicated is the WSM definition of socialism?
Quote:The establishment of a system of society based upon the common ownership and democratic control of the means and instruments for producing and distributing wealth by and in the interest of the whole community.So forgive me if I seem to like simple answers.Jonathan says the Internet has limitations, of course it does, every form of communication has limits. But seeing as global digital communication looks like it is hear to stay, and in fact looks like it will continue to become a bigger part in the lives of future generations, I think the SPGB presence on the Internet is a very important fact that should not be underestimated.But it seems Jonathan mistakenly underestimates its potential. By his own admission it has played a part in his making two new socialists. Well done, I say.If the 300 or so SPGB members could make two new socialists each from the online community, that would make 600 new socialists. (I presume Jonathan does not mean he has created two new SPGB members) So if the 600 new socialists each made two new socialist we would have 1200 new socialists and so on and so on……..Now, we couldn't expect all those new socialists to join the SPGB, but some would, and as the new socialists passed on their knowledge we could expect to see a few hundred new SPGB members over the years.Any arena for planting socialist seeds of awareness should not be underestimated. This forum is very important. In my opinion it is vital it should reflect socialist values of fellowship, positive communication, support and co operation. (Apologies if I missed anything) Without these simple values a socialist society could not function. So they should be a part of any online socialist space.Of course questioning and debate are to be encouraged, disagreement will be common place among socialists, it is part of the learning process?What I do not expect to see among socialists is abuse. I am afraid Jonathan has been just as colourful with his targeted language as those he has accused. I do not advocate censoring such behaviour, but hypocrisy should be consciously excised from socialist thought and deed, wherever possible. If we cannot maintain a positive slant on the only alternative to the vile nature of capitalism, then how do we expect potential converts to socialism, to trust our opinions?So with the bigger picture in mind, I join Steve and The Old Grey Whistle in burying the hatchet of animosity, between myself and Jonathan, as deep as possible in the flank of capitalism.Jonathan, I hope you enjoy your two weeks in America.
I totally agree with Steve.I think ALB and Jonathan Chamber have missed the boat entirely. To dismiss the opportunity to demonstrate solidarity with others involved in the struggle against capitalism is a possible costly mistake.Better that the SPGB show the way forward with more than words, than to lose the a chance to show others what we as real socialists stand for. Hopefully the women who have drafted the statement will be approached, perhaps given some literature showing the long standing party view on this issue.If we are willing to stand along side and listen to others, then there is a greater chance they will listen to our case. If they are dismissed in the usual way, I can guarantee they and others will continue to dismiss us.Oooops! There I go again, thinking I am a socialist. Sorry, I'll try harder next time.
Jonathan Chambers wrote:What's with the 'we', Colborn? I thought you'd dumped us? And 'socialist' punk. You're not a member. Who the fuck are you to tell our party what we should do when you don't even have the nerve to join? Pontificate away, buddy, but prescribe us not our duties, mofo.This is all a bit like advocating 'socialist netiquette', really, without first having socialism. It's a cart before horse situation.Ha, Ha, Ha, my belly is starting to hurt from laughter. My dear Jonathan, you just don't know when to quit. This from someone who labeled others "loudmouth gobshites". Text book hypocrisy.For starters you don't have to be a SPGB party member to be a socialist. I have heard a few times now from various members that the SPGB is not going to be at the forefront of any socialist revolution. In case you were not aware or in case you just choose not to listen, I was a party member for about six years, mid nineties onwards.Now for the juicy part Jonathan. I was looking to rejoin. Believe it or not, (I can't myself) I still feel my political home is with, dare I say this, people like you.I joined the forum to find out how the party was doing, with the intention of rejoining. When I found out about this forum, I had expected a lively vibrant forum with a lot of party members and non party members discussing and learning from one another. At first, to a newbie, it seemed that way. But then I started to see the SPGB negative criticism seep through. I started to notice the sniping and nitpicking. I realised most using the forum were party members, often chasing away potential interested, inquisitive people, just because their ideas did not conform 100% or had been "tried before". I saw those people being cut down, never to return.My eyes started to open once more to the flaws of the party. That is why I started to ask awkward questions. Don't get me wrong, I think most party members are spot on. It was my privilege to meet some in my years in the party. One of my closest friends, was until recently, a long standing hard working committed SPGB member. He still is a committed socialist, as am I.I have concerns for the future of the SPGB and WSM movement as a whole. I want it to thrive. It is for that reason I continue to participate on this forum. I had presumed it was open to non party members? In fact, I thought it was to encourage enquiring minds to participate?I ask you Jonathan, what is it you want this forum to do? You seem uninterested in creating a socialist space of encouragement and learning. A "socialist netiquette" would be part of that space of positive socialist education and discussion, don't you think? Or do you want a forum only for party members to pat each other on the back?May I suggest, instead of shouting your mouth off, aiming harsh language at people in an attempt to mark you territory, you contribute positively to a thread? Maybe set a good thread up, that might generate some interest and discussion? That is what I am trying to do. Sure, I have ruffled a few feathers, I am a million miles away from perfect, but I strive to improve. My brother and I came to that decision a number of years ago, and I try to honour that commitment to him, to this day.So swear and fling all the shit, you want Jonathan. I will still be here, offering suggestions, pointing out flaws as well as patting backs when warranted. It's never too late to start contributing something positive. I highly recommend it.
ALB wrote:This is knocking at an open door. Meanwhile out there, there are bigger fish to fry:http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/middle-east/muslim-brotherhood-opposes-un-declaration-on-violence-against-women-1.1326515So I take it you think the party should sign up to the statement? It would be a positive move towards showing some concrete solidarity.Of the "bigger fish", what do you propose to counter the negative attitude among religious conservatives?
ALB wrote:SocialistPunk wrote:Do you see a possibility of any "retaliation" from the SWP old guard?They will be hating others much more than us, especially those who have left and who they will be regarding as renegades. It will be interesting to see where most of these go, possibly into the Labour Party even.
Perhaps the SWP are not the only ones who might view disillusioned ex party members as renegades?LOL
