SocialistPunk
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Hi Adam,I was wondering about the HO fascia. I've already said that it looks good and was wondering if there is going to be any additional contact details added anywhere, such as a telephone number or perhaps more relevant in this internet age, a web address?
I wish to thank those SPGB party members who think I and other non party members might have something of value to contribute to this debate. I hope with all my heart that your view is the majority position in the SPGB.
Gnome wrote:To the best of my knowledge the SPGB has never taken advice from non-members and hopefully never will.What a ridiculous statement for a socialist to make. This statement sees non party members, that must by definition include ex-members, non party socialists, sympathisers and supporters, as empty vessels with little to offer. By this admission the SPGB must exist in a self perpetuating socialist vacuum, separate from the influence of the outside, material world.I have to ask Gnome what he thinks this open forum is for? I had assumed it was to allow non party members, socialist or otherwise, to take part in discussions and learn about the WSM/SPGB from party members? What a teacher!I didn't see any signs on the site saying "Any non SPGB input or suggestions will be duly ignored, as SPGB members know everything." Heaven forbid an outsider may have some good ideas or opinions.
Gnome wrote:now you want us to take advice from a working class that presently supports, or least acquieses in, the continuation of class society. Don't think we've got much to learn there somehowLBird hit the nail on the head when he spoke of Leninism. The idea that non party members have nothing worthwhile to offer in terms of ideas and contributions is pure anti socialist Leninism. If I was a party member I would be embarassed to think such garbage could be spouted by a fellow socialist.Last time I checked I was still a member of the working class, and I was at one time a member of the SPGB. But by Gnomes standards I have nothing worth contributing, no ideas, nothing worth listening to. I am a mere capitalist supporting ignorant worker, along with all the other non party socialists out there.I ask Gnome, when he was outside the party for some years, did he cease to be a socialist? Were his thoughts and ideas worthless?Adam puts it more comradely in the quote below.
ALB wrote:In this particular case we have two non-members, even potential members, putting forward arguments that are held by some members. So, their arguments need to be addressed anyway,rodshaw wrote:If it came to a vote, I would be in favour of streamlining the names of the various parties, and of adopting a standard logo. I don't see how it could do any harm and it might do some good. Certainly, I prefer to tell people I'm in the World Socialist Movement (or Party) rather than in the SPGB. I always feel I have to qualify the party's name by immediately disowning the nationalistic-sounding GB bit. Especially with all the 'Great British' this-and-that we get shoved at us these days.However, maybe a better policy would be for us to push the recently re-vamped WSM umbrella website as the flagship, and put more content on there. Maybe, for example, the general bit of this discussion forum should be on there rather than here.Also, I would like to know, maybe from Alan or SocialistPunk, if there is any evidence that use of 'Great Britain' in the party name is actually holding the movement back. Are you being told this? Is it putting people off joining? If we could quantify this, it might help decide how much effort was worth putting into the debate.Hi rodshawI don't have any evidence either way that the GB bit of the party name is affecting progress, but by your own admission you prefer to use the WSM identity. As you say it mingles with the pomp of nationalism. So it affects the way you promote socialism, because you wish to present socialism as international not national.World Socialist Movement, encompasses a socialist world view. It does what it says on the tin. Does The Socialist Party of Great Britain and The Socialist Party of Canada conjure up an image of international socialism? The honest answer is, no. In a growing international socialist movement the SPGB and SPC with its historical pedigree, could end up looking like a vanguard element, leading the rest of the WSM. Imagine trying to explain to people who may be interested in a world socialist view that the SPGB is part of a growing WSM, but insists on retaining its historical title. What reason could be given that did not paint a picture of historical elitism?"Well the SPGB is the oldest socialist party in Britain and the second oldest in the world, so we think it historicaly important to hold onto that identity, but we're not elitist about it."
Alan, I posted my last post without seeing yours. Powerful stuff.I note with interest you mention the lack of party members joining this forum. Damn shame, that the flagship party site is ignored by most members in favour of party member only sites. I wonder why.Out of interest, can anyone tell me when the WSM label was first adopted and how it come about?
Alan makes a good argument for this change. The age we live in now demands that the WSM keep pace. The excuse that some members are not computer literate is a feeble one, considering as Alan points out education and a DIY ethic lies at the core of the principles of socialism. Though I am not in favour of the WSM being pared down to regional identities such as WSM (London) WSM (North East) etc.Alan and I know the history that the SPGB and SPC have and how important that is, but we are not advocating the two ditch such history. But is it not better to develop an international identity at some point? If an organisation continually uses history as an excuse, then it soon becomes tradition. This strikes at the heart of a fault of the SPGB, an inability to respond quickly and decisively to changing social situations and developments.If history was so important, why did the members in the eighties and nineties want to downplay the GB element of the SPGB? Measure were put in place to protect the history of the party while trying to move the identity of the party in a direction more relevant to the times. The party adopting WSM (Britain) or whatever geographical location is necessary,can still be done while protecting the historical party origins as the SPGB. Just as dropping the GB could have been done decisively, decades ago.No doubt about it, it would require full and lengthy debate within the party. But I suspect the traditional mood of the party at present may mean the SPGB miss the boat yet again.
SB_UKYou haven't adressed one of the questions I put to you about your ideas. What have Chinese and Russian students in the UK got to do with the question I asked you about the former Soviet Union and China being the result of thinking people who rejected socialism in favour of a dictatorship? And what of the thinking inteligent people who reject the WSM/SPGB ideas as fantasy, yet continue on with the tinkering of the political and economic landscape of today?The WSM/SPGB reject the politics of capitalism as being useless for the majority of people. We are not interested in attaining power over anyone.All you seem to be saying is that we will get there in the end, yet fail to provide any consistent, organised means to this glorious elegant end. In fact that is the idea regarding TZM I am getting from other members of this forum, a great idea (pretty much the same as WSM socialism) but lacking any consistency.
Hi DJPI'm not having a dig at you, I know your not the moderator. There is a first warning for off topic edited into post #40 on the WSM/SPGB strategy in 2014 thread. But you're right, I am being a bit over sensitive. I'll try and knock it on the head.
Me to Vin, I've received a warning on the WSM/SPGB strategy thread for asking about the party names in relation to a Scottish vote for independence. I think that's relevant in terms of party strategy, seeing as others were discussing the subject of the party name.Looks like you and me have our cards marked. Minor infringements that others can get away with gets us a warning.We are gonna have to be ultra squeaky clean in future.
Thanks Adam, wasn't aware of that thread (started chemotherapy around that time so was a little distracted), will take my questions on over there.Thanks as well Alan, but in answering me you've left yourself open to a warning for being off topic. Hope to see ya on the thread pointed out by Adam, as the stuff you mention is interesting.
Looks like there are no takers, willing to answer my questions on #37.Perhaps an answer to the question regarding Scottish independence and the party name might be forthcoming. Has it even been discussed?
SB_UKThe very act of persuading people to recognise a need or benefit from switching from todays minority owned and controlled economic system, capitalism, to a system the WSM/SPGB/TZM advocate, is political in nature. In essence all the WSM/SPGB do is explain to people who are interested, how the current system, capitalism, operates and then offers a solution or if you prefer, a vision of what society could be.The politics comes because of the need to persuade people to relinquish their force fed, distorted view of the way society functions today. A lot of people know something is not right about the way society operates, but can't quite see exactly what it is and ens up falling for the same old lie that governments work in the interest of us all. "Things may not be perfect," they bleat "but there's no alternative.". This is very much the case in Britain today.The WSM/SPGB also have to work against the dream machinery of capitalism. The government lies and distortion, the media lies and distortion and to a lesser extent (regarding influence) in the West, religious lies and distortion. That is no easy task. Without coherent organisation we simply won't break through the highly organised capitalist structure. Try bringing up the idea of a moneyless society of common ownership and most people think you're a crank. It's a hard nut to crack. If it wasn't we would already be living in a socialist world, given that the SPGB/WSM has been on about it for over a hundred years.You say "all people who think about the problem will come to the same conclusion.". If that is the case how do you explain the former Soviet Union, China and the like? What about the myriad of political reformist parties and groups out there who think capitalism can be tinkered with to make it work fairer? Thinking people thought that load of crap up and thinking people still slurp it up. How do you explain the lack of epiphanies?
Thanks Adam for being patient with me on this issue. I was not privy to previous discussions on this issue earlier this year on another thread (due to my not feeling so hot after major surgery last November).Interesting to note that, as I suspected, a party poll trumps conference decisions, so that in reality the 2008, 2014 conference decisions on this matter are essentially invalid, due to the 1991 party poll. But I suppose this is only the case if party rules are meant to be taken literally.It would be interesting to here Gnomes easy argument on the issue.Now, what would happen regarding the name of the party if Scotland votes for independence? I think the great in GB is a reference to the larger landmass. I could be wrong, as it does also seem to have a glorious empire connotation as well.So, if Scotland votes for independence, technically it would put the name SPGB in an historical context, as Britain includes Scotland, England and Wales. Ironically precisely what the 1988 conference and 1991 party poll voted for. Would the SPGB then become The Socialist Party of England and Wales? Oh dear! Or perhaps a more accurate description geographically speaking, The Socialist Party of the British Isles? And what of the Socialists in Scotland? Essentially a load of bollocks, probably what the majority in the party thought in the late eighties and early nineties, when voting to downplay the GB bit.However if Scotland does vote YES, and the party insist on retaining SPGB publically, it opens the party up for a further charge of being outdated and open to ridcule etc. Worth a thought.I've no idea if the HO fascia has been ordered, but if it hasn't ,best wait until after the Scottish independence referendum.
SB_UK,I am curious as to how the majority of the worlds poulation will take control of the worlds resources without some form of mass organisation?Will capitalism and its protectors (governments) just relinquish their ownership and control of the worlds resources because of a change of heart, a realisation that it's the right thing to do?The only way for the majority of the worlds population to control the worlds resources in a sustainable way for the benefit of humanity, is for them to take ownwership and control away from the capitalist minority. That will require organisation and democratic participation on a scale never before seen. As such politics can not be avoided.
I am so sorry to have wasted any of your time at all, Gnome my dear chap.But if as you say you could easily argue a case for the lack of party polling on this issue then why not. I am not the only one following this issue with interest, so if a Socialist Party of Great Britain member can't be bothered to waste their time explaining the processes of how such a decision came about (ie arguments for and against) openly on the party website then fair enough.As for the idea the party has been slipshod in the decision making process, I wasn't implying anything of the sort, simply curious as to why a party poll was deemed necessary in 1988, but not subsequently regarding the same issue?For instance what is the democratic difference between a party poll (presumably of all members) and a conference decision?Not unreasonable or difficult questions, surely?Like I said,I'm very rusty when it comes to party rules and regulations.If openness isn't forthcoming here and now, why should I or anyone waste time joining in order to find out how the party operates?
