SocialistPunk
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I agree with ALB, Brand does come across as genuine and enthusiastic and that he will probably end up endorsing no one group but supporting everyone who seeks a genuine revolutionary solution to the mess we have at present.The "bumhole" bit about Hitchens is spot on.Vin is correct as well. There will be some in the Party that dismiss Brand because he doesn't support the SPgb or join up etc, forgetting what I have heard many times on this forum, that the SPgb will be one of many parts of the peoples global revolution.So long as he sticks with the idea of revolution, he's ok by me.
Young Master Smeet wrote:SP,Quote:For most would be socialists, it takes active investigation that can include asking questions and debating (it's what this forum is for).Quite, and most workers don't even feel the need to begin that level of examination. If the workers wanted socialist ideas, they'd be beating a path to our door. Or, as I'm sure you did, they'd be putting across socialist ideas themselves. As it stands, for them the sun is green, and their daily experience concurrs with this.
YMSThis is what you provide in answer to my questions about your view of our class deliberately and conciously rejecting socialism?The daily experience for our class is that the way it is now, is the way it has always been. That doesn't stop us from being unhappy with it, but we are told that although it isn't perfect it's the best there is. Then we are bombarded with examples of socialism/communism as it happened in Russia and China etc. That is the lived experience of our class and I agree with you that they are mistaken.The difference we seem to have is that you think our class has conciously rejected socialism as we define it, whereas I say it can't be conciously rejected if our class is not aware of it as we define it. You think that millions have been exposed, I say if millions have been exposed (and I have my doubts) then it is only a fleeting glimpse and not enough to turn most people on, as it can't compete with the daily pressures, distractions, lies and misinformation spread by the establishment.The information put out by us as socialists, whether individually in our daily lives or as members of the likes of the SPgb, is a "piss in the Atlantic" compared to the mega tsunami of lies and distortion of the the ruling ideology that permeates every apect of our lives.What I'm getting from our discussion is that you say the SPgb and WSM have been successful in their mission of exposing workers to socialism (Workers, millions of 'em!), and come to the conclusion that the workers have rejected socialism in favour of capitalism. Have I got that right?
Young Master Smeet wrote:SP, well, ask yourself, if the establishment kept swearing blind that the sun was green and sunlight harmful, would you believe them? or, would you find that your lived experience, and your need to go out into the sunlight would contradict them? I'm suggesting that indoctrination and ideological maipulation wouldn't work if working class people didn't find that reality as explained to them (and how they identify themselves) worked. As EP Thompson noted in the making of the English Working Class, the working class is not the passive object of the capitalists. Durham Miners fought hard to create the wages system and a free market in labour, for example.YMS,Very soon we (I'm not sure how many countries do this) in Britain will be putting our clocks back one hour. The establishment has decided to move the measurement of time back and forth. I've no doubt that most of the population would prefer not to bother, but the establishment have decided. Sunlight is harmful, as anyone who has had sunburn can testify to. But I'm not interested in analogies.You say millions of workers have rejected socialism. I say how can any member of our class conciously reject something they have never come across or have had the most fleeting glimpse of? We can dismiss out of hand, but to conciously reject is very different.As you already know, capitalism didn't come about overnight, it evolved, Capitalist ideology still has many of the same concepts as previous societies, such as trade, money, laws and leaders, along with an unequal devision of societies wealth. How many times have you heard it said, "That's the way it's always worked."? Where did that idea come from I wonder?World socialism requires the concious majority of workers to bring about a revolution, not an evolution, of the structure of society. It is my view that this is an alien concept for most people, who are under the pervasive influence of ruling ideology. I think the vast majority of people are capable of grasping the concept, but it is not as simple as reading a leaflet or watching an election broadcast every now and then. For most would be socialists, it takes active investigation that can include asking questions and debating (it's what this forum is for).If you still disagree with me, that's fine, but you haven't given me a convincing counter argument yet.
Young Master Smeet wrote:SP,Sorry, I was ansswering:Quote:I was hoping you would be able to provide some possible analysis to the reasons why milions of workers have conciously chosen to reject the socialist case?and in a hurry, but I think my answer is plain enough.
Ah…crossed wires there YMS, my apologies also.I'm a little confused as to what your position is here YMS.
Young Master Smeet wrote:SP,Imagine if the broadcast media, all the university experts and a substantial number of people kept on insisting that the sun was green, and that it was impossible to see in the daylight.Therein lies my answer.The above suggests people are persuaded to believe a load of bollocks by the establishment. Ok, fair enough, it's something I had been suggesting ealrier when I mentioned socialisation. We are "educated" from a young age to accept that this is how the world works and always has.But earlier you seemed to sugest something different.
Young Master Smeet wrote:Indeed, they often have quite complex and well developed political ideas. yes, they are misinformed, and subject to a bombardment of propaganda, but they are not brainwashed or conmpletely subsumed by ideology,What exactly are you saying? How can the establishment convince us that night is day etc if we are not immersed in the process of socialisation? And what of the socialist favourite about the ideology of the ruling class being the prevailing ideology?The recent Scottish independence referendum was a classic example of our class getting stuck into the debate about who rules over them, Scottish MPs or British MPs. I bet Scotland had never before seen such a debate. But there was no talk of a truly democratic Scotland governed by the people. I think ruling class ideology was firmly in control there.So what is it YMS, a working class fully informed and in control of their own political direction, consciously choosing capitalism over socialism, or a deliberately misinformed, misled working class seldom coming into any meaningful contact with our alternative?
YMSYou stated that millions of people have heard and rejected the socialist case. I ask you what you think is a possible solution to that situation, and you answer with the following.
Young Master Smeet wrote:SP,Imagine if the broadcast media, all the university experts and a substantial number of people kept on insisting that the sun was green, and that it was impossible to see in the daylight.Therein lies my answer.I would appreciate it if you put a lid on the cryptic stuff YMS and just answer a question in an understandable way. You came out with a lot of this sort of stuff on the "Science for communists" thread and it helped make a complicated topic even more so. [edit] I used the word "cryptic" when I should have said sarcastic.
Hi JDWIt's a complicated issue, but the main problem I see is what has been called "socialisation". Imagine if we were living in a socialist world right now, we would be socialised by our environment to accept things as they are, each new generation being indoctrinated into that social setting. Unfortunately we don't live in a socialist society, but the socialisation applies the same today in capitalism. It isn't a simple case of, "If only people heard the case", nor is it a case of millions have heard and rejected it. It isn't enough to just hear it, people need to understand it at a level that is hard to achieve in a capitalist socialised world.The socialists/communists on this site and in the SPGB and WSM are a tiny minority among a minority, and we are drowned out by the mainstream. Every now and then a person looking for an alternative comes in contact with us or some literature, internet site and so on, and may decide to dig deeper. Only then are they in a position to be able to agree or reject.
SocialistPunk wrote:I say a major factor is the workers are underexposed to the socialist case, the case we push can't compete against the mainstream for attention. You seem to say, millions have been exposed and choose capitalism. What's your solution?[edit] YMS, I was hoping you would be able to provide some possible analysis to the reasons why milions of workers have conciously chosen to reject the socialist case?
Young Master Smeet wrote:SP,we have the evidence that millions have received our leaflets, seen our adverts, etc. They may not have read deeply, but that would only be indicative of their rejections from the get go. Their ideas are well developed, and we have to respect that decision, rather than assuming 'Ah, but if they only heard what we have to tell them!' Indeed, they often have quite complex and well developed political ideas. yes, they are misinformed, and subject to a bombardment of propaganda, but they are not brainwashed or conmpletely subsumed by ideology, as the Leniniss would have us believe. Our working assumption has to be that they are rational agents, who can run their own lives, and see working within the system as it is as their best option.Now I get it. The many thousands of leaflets that have been shoved through the letter boxes over the years. I took part in that stuff when in the North East branch and I expect I know where most of those ended up, along with the other political leaflets.I suspected I would see something along the lines of the highlighted sentence above. It's why in my previous post I clearly stated that I did not underestimate the workers. I am not of the opinion that people will be won over by a leaflet now and then. I am most certainly not in the camp that thinks that once the socialist case is heard, it should automaticaly lead to acceptance and joining the Party, and if that fails to occur it can only mean the case has not been understood. That then leads to an elitist attitude.Brainwash or socialisation amounts to the same thing. As Alan so aptly states there are so many things that bombard workers lives, so many blind alleys and lies. Scanning yet another political leaflet that lands on your doorstep every time an election comes around is not enough to turn on most struggling workers. It may spark an interest in those who are seeking an alternative. As to the second highlighted sentence, do you believe that the lottery of a workers life in capitalism is the best option people choose? The lives of most workers are limited in choices, the main choice we have is get a job or go without.I say a major factor is the workers are underexposed to the socialist case, the case we push can't compete against the mainstream for attention. You seem to say, millions have been exposed and choose capitalism. What's your solution?
Young Master Smeet wrote:SP,I think that under estimates the amouint of thought people put into supporting capitalism, and for most people it is a lot. Hours upon hours are spent arguing in the pub, watching telly, reading leaflets (including ours). If they don't read very far that is because they reject our idea tout court. much in the same way I'm not going to waste my time on the writings of The Campaign to restore Feudalism, or any such.I'm afraid you have to wake up to the fact that millions of workers have read our propaganda, heard our message, and rejected it. Even if they have not specifically read our literature, they are aware of the critiques of the market, and usually reject them and accept market ideas.When I was in a position to go down the pub, and I frequented a few over the years in diferent parts of the North East, I never once overheard people discussing socialist politics, unless I missed the hushed whispers here and there. Plenty of Labour vs Tory and I expect theses days UKIP will be a favourite with some, along with the usual foottball, soap operas and celeb bollocks, but definately no SPGB style socialism.You have no proof that millions of people have heard and understood the socialism we discuss on this site, enough to conciously reject it.On another thread Alan proposed a way of finding out how well known the SPGB are in Britain. a poll of some description, whether conducted by the Party or the services of a polling company. That would be more proof than anecdotal statements, such as, "I'm afraid you have to wake up to the fact that millions of workers have read our propaganda…..and rejected it."I'm not underestimating the "workers", far from it. I'm simply pointing out that the socialism we mean is so far removed from the realm of mainstream thinking and acceptability, of the constant indoctrination we are exposed to from the moment we are born, that it takes a lot of study and Q n A sessions to be able to break down those barriers. Like I said socialists aren't created overnight.
Young Master Smeet wrote:I think we need to take workers' opinions at face value. When asked, time and again they support capital;ist parties, and capitalist ideas. When presented with the case for socialism, they reject it. That's why workers vote Tory, Libreral and Labour. Unless and until their lived experience accords with socialist understanding (and the need for socialist ideas) they will go on supporting capitalism. All we can do is make that coming to socialist consciousness a little easier, and mean that workers' don't have to re-invent the wheel each time.Missing the point YMS.How can anyone reject something they are not even aware of?Workers only vote time and time again for capitalist parties because that is all that is on offer, or so it appears for most of the time. Most people don't even fully realise the extent of capitalism.There is a lot of discontent out there, but that does not mean our brand of socialism is known. So people look to the traditional left and right of politics with its claim to the alternative.Take the last European elections and the SPgb election broadcast in Wales. It has probably helped to boost awareness among people more open to alternative ideas, but to break through the enforced political disinterest of the majority of workers it takes repeated performances and contact. No socialist is made overnight.To insist on the claim that workers vote for capitalism and reject socialism requires evidence of such behaviour. It means that proof must be demonstrated that workers are just as aware of both ideologies.
ALB wrote:Obviously, we have to win the battle of ideas before socialism/communism can be established but the above strikes me as coming close to saying that the workers can never be wrong as it appears to be saying that if the workers "vote" for capitalism (as they do) then they are right. Certainly, as the "outvoted" socialist minority, we have to no alternative but to accept that capitalism will (even should?) continue. But do we have to accept that the workers' choice is "right"? Why would it be "elitist" to say that they were mistaken?There are also problems about how votes for various things are counted.Something everyone has perhaps missed.The workers do not vote FOR capitalism. To vote for capitalism suggests the workers have an alternative that is known and presented to them. The opposite is true. The socialism/communism we talk about on this forum is something that the majority of workers worldwide have never come across before. It is an alien concept, that on the rare occasions they do come into contact with it has to break through the socialised conformity that bombards us at every level since we are born. If the word socialism means anything to the majority it is, as we know, associated with the Labour party and the former USSR.
Hi ParamjeetA little bit of advice. It would be helpful if you could break your posts up into paragraphs. As it stands now your long posts are laborious to read through.Paragraphs make it easier to digest chunks of information before moving on to the next paragraph and so on. They're also helpful for readers to be able to refer back and forth to various points in a written piece.If you take this bit of advice on board, it may help you to get your points across more effectively, hopefully leading to a profitable discussion.
gnome wrote:jondwhite wrote:Surely its not just members or the party teaching the class?It seems someone has to; the working class at present can hardly be seen as a 'class for itself', in active pursuit of its own interests.
I suspect what JDW is getting at, is there are non Party socialists and people who don't identify themselves as socialist out there working to educate the non concious working class.
What I don't get, is what's behind this, apart from the obvious Tory social Darwinist view of disabled workers being worth less than regular ones?Both Labour and Tories want an end to the welfare system as we currently recognise it, as it is a tax burden. So subsidising disabled workers is defeating the object. Unless it means they can make more savings by removing various disability payments from the subsidised disabled workers.I mean, does anyone seriously believe that these…err…people… have the interests of the disabled population of this country at heart?
