[SocialistPunk]

Alan,I've said it is entirely up to you how you want to present yourself here. I'm not a moderator. But if you, a socialist, think it appropriate to dismiss someone because you think they are a "nutter" then I think socialism is a long way off. I agree that Duncan is well read, intelligent and sincere, I disagree with his analysis of the SPGB/WSM and he presents no credible alternative to the horrors of capitalism, when questioned. But that doesn't automatically make him a "nutter" any more than it does you or me for thinking those who reject our socialist analysis of society are wrong.I'm sure you are aware that the issue of mental illness is an area that is prone to misunderstanding and prejudice. You have demonstrated that perfectly. As once you decided upon Duncan's diagnosis, you proceded to use that diagnosis to dismiss his opinions.Nice one, very helpful.Second warning: 2. The forums proper are intended for public discussion. Personal messages between participants should be sent via private message or by e-mail.

[SocialistPunk]

Alan,You are out of order mate and that is the simple fact of the matter here. You do not know Duncan, you have never met him and I don't think you are a qualified psychiatrist either. Yet you are able to offer a possible diagnosis of his mental state. And for whose benefit? What service does it perform to offer your opinion of some ones state of mind? It serves one purpose, that of dismissing them as irrelevant.I recall that when an SPGB member's socialist integrity is brought into question, it is considered unacceptable, terrible even. Likewise if you or I were to call someone a fucking moron, that too would be out of order.If you disagree with Duncan or anybody else you are free to say so. You are also free to refrain from commenting. You are even, as far as I'm concerned, free to make discussions personal. Though in doing so you expose your intentions to willingly cause insult. Your questioning Duncan's mental state was unnecessary and a deliberately inflammatory remark, how could it be otherwise, and as such you enter  the realm of the internet troll. A shame really as your post up to that point was well presented.I said you are free, as far as I'm concerned, to insult people, to expose your mental/emotional state, for all to see and judge. You are also free to apologise.

[SocialistPunk]

alanjjohnstone wrote:

I will now go a lot further, Duncan, and incur the wrath of the moderator and perhaps offend other contributors to the thread

Alan, your powers of premonition are amazing.I'm somewhat lost for words and more than a little disappointed that you choose to dismiss someone as having mental health issues, simply because they do not share your world view. How many times have SPGB members been branded as delusional, harebrained, crackpots etc, because they see the world differently to what is considered "normal".Delusional adjective 1. having false or unrealistic beliefs or opinions The second part of the above definition likely sums up the stance of the SPGB/WSM in the eyes of most who have come in contact with it and its members. First warning: 2. The forums proper are intended for public discussion. Personal messages between participants should be sent via private message or by e-mail.

[SocialistPunk]

Thanks ALBIt's on page 4 of the audio menu, if anyone's interested.Interesting thing you say about the three ex-members of UKIP joining the SPGB. Any idea as to the general reasons for the quite dramatic shift in their political stance?

[SocialistPunk]

Thanks ALB,A fascinating list indeed. What I meant by recorded was more specificaly audio recordings, as I'm aware some of the Party audio recordings have been transfered to digital format.Not sure what the "So we do practice what we preach." sentence refers to. I've long known the SPGB have debated and are willing to debate with right wing groups. 

[SocialistPunk]

I was of the impression that this thread was about the mechanics of the moderation structure. How it could be improved, adapted etc.  Not about complaints as to how the moderation on particular threads is being interpreted and implemented.   

[SocialistPunk]

ALB and JDW

SocialistPunk wrote:

Ideas of religious and racial extremism are particularly hard to debunk in the minds of those who hold them.

I'm well aware the purpose of open discussion is the attempt at influencing the audience as to the strength of competing ideas. I've mentioned it once or twice in posts over the years and is the key point in my inviting SPGB members to engage in discussion about censorship, with kudos going to YMS for participating. I also simply asked if the SPGB have ever debunked, not lay claim to be able to debunk, the ideas of religious or racial extremism.I thought the hint was obvious, but I guess I'll have to be more explicit. Are there any recorded debates available between Party members and groups that hold extreme racial or religious views? Any ideas as to how to approach and counter such views is always welcome, surely.

[SocialistPunk]

ALB wrote:

I know I'm probably making a mistake in reviving this corrupted thread as it risks setting them all going again,

Ouch! Nothing hits harder than condescension.I came across the same story, ALB refers to, this morning. After thinking about this issue further, I can see why some are tempted to exclude "extremist" views from the debating arena. While I'm all in favour of openly exposing and taking apart views that are considered problematic or flawed, it isn't as easy as it sounds.Ideas of religious and racial extremism are particularly hard to debunk in the minds of those who hold them. Sure, to those of us who think we are rational they appear ridiculous. I recall watching a bemused Richard Dawkins failing miserably to make a dent in the armour of the US biblical creationists in a documentary a few years ago. On this site a couple of years back, we failed to destroy the racial views of someone who showed up to discuss that issue. So often it's just the unpleasantness of a person holding those views that swings the balance of opinion, rather than the ideas being destroyed.Has the SPGB ever utterly destroyed the ideas of religious or racial extremists? Some examples would be welcome.

[SocialistPunk]

Vin wrote:

What about a show of hands – who believes that religion and ideology will continue into socialism/communism. lol

My hand is up.As far as ideology goes a socialist society would still have a socialist outlook, ideas, values, etc. Some don't like to see that whole package as ideology, as has been discussed before, but we're all free to disagree.As for religion, I guess it depends on whether new age spiritual beliefs are regarded as a form of religion. I don't see why all spiritual belief must die out in a socialist society.First warning: 1. The general topic of each forum is given by the posted forum description. Do not start a thread in a forum unless it matches the given topic, and do not derail existing threads with off-topic posts.

[SocialistPunk]

Duncan, you've received a few less than patient replies but I'm not slagging you off or taking the piss. I'm just interested in what can be done to bring an end to capitalism and bring into existence a system whereby, the  99% of the global population, us the working class, own and control the worlds resources together, for our benefit.What are your ideas on how that can be achieved?Do you even want an end to capitalism?

[SocialistPunk]

Hi DuncanSuppose you're right and 9/11 was an American government conspiracy acted out on it's own citizens for some nefarious purpose and the Twin Towers were brought down deliberately. And lets go as far as supposing Icke like lizard overlords are in control of earth and have enslaved humanity. The question then becomes, "What you gonna do about it?"I'm being serious here, I'm not taking the piss or being sarcastic. What's to be done?The fact is, conspiracies do exist. They go on all the time. Take the invasion of Iraq in 2003. A host of half truths, distortions and lies were told in order to justify the invasion of Iraq by "The Coalition of the Willing". Take the many banking scandals that are emerging of late, bankers and financiers conspired to rig and bypass the "rules" of the financial game. Then there's the Extraordinary Rendition cases, with the previous Labour government of Britain misleading Parliament and the public about its role in American government kidnapping during its "War on Terror".Most conspiracy theorists are no different to the classic doom monger walking up and down the high street wearing a sandwich board with "The End is Nigh" written on it. In other words they have nothing to offer other than a sense of helplessness. Contrast that with what the SPGB/WSM say. That the majority, the 99%, hold the power without realising it. The power to change the system from one of minority ownership ie capitalism, to one of global common ownership and democratic control, that would once and for all put an end to inequality, poverty, starvation, war and all the injustices currently used to maintain the status quo.The SPGB/WSM can't change the system any more than you or I can. It has to be the work of the 99%. I would also say that once we, the 99%, have control of the worlds resources, only then will we uncover the true extent of the real conspiracies and be in a position to deal with those responsible in a manner befitting their crimes against humanity.

[SocialistPunk]

It does appear to be a very touchy subject indeed, Mod1. I think it's why we had a call for this thread to be locked up. Somwhat ironic considering the titleI'm not being sarcastic and I might even sound like an arse licker to some, but with calls for people to be banned, threads to be binned, and recently a call for this thread on censorship to be locked. I'm very pleased we have a moderator who can steer a path through it all.Of course everyone, won't agree with every decision, (how is it even possible) but it could be a whole lot worse. 

[SocialistPunk]

moderator1 wrote:

ALB wrote:

moderator1 wrote:

I have replied to this post on the 'Moderator suggestion' thread on the Website/Technical forum.

Good. About time. Why don't you now lock this thread and transfer any further discussion to the technical section where it should be and have beeb.

Thanks for the suggestion, but while there is still a conversation going on between SP and YMS it would be unwise to lock this thread.  They are after all discussing how censorship can be applied intentionally and unintentionally.

Something tells me that YMS is done with discussion on this issue. So I guess ALB could have his way, ensuring no further discussion can be had on this thread.If this thread were to be locked as per ALBs instruction, would it be intentional or unintentional censorship?

[SocialistPunk]

No despair from me, LBird.The beauty of science (or human discovery) is in it's constant state of flux, without which we wouldn't be here.

[SocialistPunk]

So what we have is evidence for violence and non-violence from our ancient hunter gatherer ancestors, with some investigators seeing war and others not.Back to the drawing board people.

[Author]

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