SocialistPunk
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I've seen those thumbs up and down things on various forums I've been on, never bothered to use them, they just seem a bit petty minded.What I'm really getting at is, what use are they to a forum?Some here who think it a good idea seem to think it will help this site function better, be more democratic etc. Can such a function work such wonders?
Looks like the free advertising wasn't so free after all.Poorly thought out strategy has a habit of backfiring.I guess you either love it or hate it.
Just had an idea for a photo shop or cartoon idea the party could splash over it's social media. It is crude I admit, but it could be upgraded with a bit of tinkering. I'd do it myself but my old laptop no longer runs my graphics software programe.Cameron referred to the refugees as "swarms"
David Cameron wrote:“you have got a swarm of people coming across the Mediterranean, seeking a better life, wanting to come to Britain because Britain has got jobs, it’s got a growing economy, it’s an incredible place to live”.He added: “But we need to protect our borders by working hand in glove with our neighbours, the French, and that is exactly what we are doing.”Possibilities:- Photo shopped pic of Cameron handing out fly swatters to border control.Or a simple photo shopped pic of Cameron waving a fly swatter, raving about being invaded by swarms etc.Or a cartoon graphic where Cameron is transofmed into a lesser witted fly swatter. Possibly a sketch of him crawling out of an egg sack, or an egg sack near by with him hanging upside down, drying out on a branch etc. Again raving about invasions by swarms. etc.Stuff like that might get noticed.
alanjjohnstone wrote:SP, i hope you do understand that not all on the Left and not all in the Corbyn camp will be receptive to our ideas. As DJP says, our position is guaranteed to be unsettling for those who have utter faith in labourism and trust in leaders. So when we do provoke a reaction such as petty vandalism against our HO then i do see it as a sign that our argument has had a result at reaching some who can only answer with an infantile play of words on our name. I offered 3 responses. Going public and giving the gutter press another excuse to smear Corbyn would be the worse option. Going to Private Eye would be continuing their coverage on and hopefully showiing we pay the price for our principles yet still stand firm . I doubt a private message to Corbyn would even be acknowledged by his office much less read by him but it does offer an opportunity for him to apologise on behalf of those acting without his encouragement and show that he is indeed a person of honour despite our political differences. My prefered option is to forget all about it. That we make sure our insurance premiums are paid in case we are subjected to a more serious act of revenge. I am confident that our cynicism and scepticalism about Corbyn will prove right and ample opportunities will arise in the future to expose Labour and his views . My only conecern is that we do in a consistent fashion and with the same sincerity and integrity that Corbyn is getting all the kudos for. The price we pay will be the ire of those unwilling to accept criticism. There is no easy way to tell someone they are wrong and mistaken and are victims of false hope, and prone to delusions. Nobody thanks you for saying they have been conned and sold a pig in a poke but it is our task to let the cat out of the bag …(how i love to mix metaphors).I have not joined in the denounciations of the front cover, not because i like or dislike it, but because i have confidence in our lay-out team that they know what they are doing (and i am sure they are aware and will take on board other member's thoughts for future issues). I will give them the full respect of not instructing them on how to do their job. I will let them have some degree of artistic licence and not impose my own opinions. We have delegated the responsibility to them to design a magazine that has an effect and impact. I am prepared to overlook the occasional lapse in judgement IF there has been one.Needless to say, though, i personally see a future SS cover of a photo-shopped picture of Corbyn on bended knee before the Queen which he will have to do to join the Privy Council and the well-known phrase to express the irony. "The great appear great because we are on our knees: Let us rise."Alan,I of course fully understand that not all on the left, especially the Labour "left" will be receptive to our version of socialism. But it's even less likely to appeal to the "right".I think you misunderstand what myself, Vin and a couple of others (of whom I thought you were one) are getting at. It's not the thought out criticism, of which the Socialist Standard, for the most part, does very well. In fact, by itself I don't have a major problem with the front cover of the Standard, but in conjunction with the crude anti-Corbyn visual campaign on party social media sites, it was the straw that broke the camels back for me.The issue is two fold. Firstly a lack of ability to identify a target audience (or perhaps not?). Secondly identifying the best methods to draw people in and hopefully investigate further. Ultimately I'm trying to get closer to an understanding of how better to communicate the message.Unfortunately I think there is an element in the SPGB who like nothing better than to irritate the "left".The sticker on HO window is a perfect example of getting a crude reaction in return for a crude campaign. It's unlikely the person/s involved looked any further than the anti-Corbyn images circulating social media and on the front of the Socialist Standard. You reap what you sow.People with progressive social attitudes are more likely to be drawn to our position. Like it or not those people are usually found on the "left" of the political spectrum.I've yet to hear a coherent counter argument.
Vin,He doesn't. He's just pushing buttons because he can't provide any thought out counter argument to what we are saying.In fact if you review the discussion, there are more party members criticising some of the stuff being put out in the name of the SPGB.
As one of the vociferous minority, the only thing I'm guilty of is offering a reasoned argument against being overly antagonistic to the very audience that are more likely to be open to our brand of socialism. I've even provided some evidence to back up my position.In contrast, the supporters of the tried and tested yet failing approach, offer….the same old tried and tested yet failing approach.It's been used recently somewhere on this forum, a quote mistakenly attributed to Einstein, but worth using again."Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
alanjjohnstone wrote:Message #546Perhaps if we still have a photo of this we can forward it to Private Eye and get some more publicity from them…Or we could go public to the right wing media with a press release and ask that Corbyn repudiate the actions of his more zealous supporters. Or be discreet and send a private message to his office and politely inform him of this incident and see what he does in response. Personally, i'd just forget it and put it down to experience and chalk one up for ourselves that we can still get under their skin.Alan,Why would you want to "get under their skin"? Surely annoying people is not what we're in this for?I thought you had some sympathy with John Crump's criticism of the SPGB, as you chose to draw attention to his party circular written (link below) just before his resignation from the party (early 1970's, I think).I got the impression he saw the SPGB as detached from workers struggles, with sectarian and utopian controlling forces stifling revolutionary progress. That a true revolutionary movement does not stand on the sidelines sneering and telling workers that their struggles are wrong all the time.https://libcom.org/library/introduction-27
Links to two much better articles about the backfire effect than the ones I previously linked to can be found below. http://skepdic.com/backfireeffect.htmlhttp://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2010/07/11/how_facts_backfire/?page=1
This probably belongs more here than on the "Jeremy Corbyn to be elected Labour leader" thread.
gnome wrote:robbo203 wrote:gnome wrote:robbo203 wrote:But does Cameron (say) believe in the things that Corbyn believes in? Clearly not. Beyond the fact that for neither of them their political horizons don't extend beyond capitalism and some kind of configuration in which the market and the state both play a role, they don't seem to have much in common, do they?FFS, what else do they need to have in common to be seen as the anti-socialists they both are? They both believe that capitalism, suitably 'adjusted', can be made to work in the interests of us all. At least with Cameron workers know, or should know, what they're going to get; with Corbyn there's an attractive label on his bottle describing the contents as an elixir, which when eventually opened, turns out to be remarkably similar and as equally unpalatable as the snake oil in all the other bottles.
Going in with all guns blazing as far as Corbyn is concerned is a recipe for simply shooting yourself in the foot
"Guns blazing"? What are you on about; been watching too many Westerns, Robin? Look, it's always been 'horses for courses' but when one's dealing with a quasi-religious phenomenen it matters little which approach is taken when confronting those who find the allure of a 'pied-piper' quite irresistible. Ask the party member whose spouse was totally unconvinced by laid-back, calm and reasoned argument and ended up joining the Labour Party in the days following the coronation of King Corbyn.
Gnome,Please pass these links on to the party member you mention in your post.http://bigthink.com/think-tank/the-backfire-effect-why-facts-dont-win-argumentshttp://bigthink.com/in-their-own-words/the-key-to-rational-argument-reframe-it-as-a-partnershiphttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qe5pv4khM-Y
jondwhite wrote:The Tory attack ad herehttp://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/sep/14/conservtives-corbyn-attack-video-demon-eyes-smear-with-legsLike the article says, it looks like the Tories are shit scared of Corbyn and the growing frustration he seems to have tapped into.What else could explain such heavy duty scare tactics so early in this governments reign of misery?Time for the SPGB to tap into that frustration and hit the Tories hard. There's plenty to work with right now.
[sarcasm alert]What! Not singing the national anthem. The bastard!But at least he was wearing a tie.
This is another example of the anti-worker attitude of this overtly pro-capitalist government that should be hammered home by the SPGB with a full frontal assault.Issuing press statements are fine, but use of the type of graphic orientated attacks, seen recently aimed at Corbyn, over social media etc would be a good idea.You bring all the anti-human policies of this government together and you got TNT.
