SocialistPunk
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Young Master Smeet wrote:SocialistPunk wrote:Another non answer YMS. I hope this is not going to be a become a habit.
It was full answer, we organise anti-capitalist demos and meetings all the time, no-one shows up, we don't have the size or resources to organise an impresive demonstration (all we can demonstrate is our weakness).
My apologies YMS.I did say the low membership issue is a hindrance when it comes to orgainising such publicity drives.
Alan, you've mentioned a few times now party members reluctance to appear on this forum. Indeed I have seen one or two statements being put forward by members of this forum on behalf of party members who either can't or won't post themselves.Have you, or any party forum members, any idea as to why some refuse to contribute to an open party discussion forum?
Young Master Smeet wrote:SocialistPunk wrote:2) How would organising, say an anti-capitalist demo, confuse the SPGB message with an anti-capitalist message? I'm not talking about organising anti-austerity or save our NHS events. Those are clearly reformist requests. But an anti-capitalist orgainised event, demo etc, would likely attract some sympathetic minds. I did previously state that the various demos attract publicity for the groups doing the organising. It's advertising.We do that, all the time. 6 men and a dog turn up and we chat to them.
Another non answer YMS. I hope this is not going to be a become a habit.
Vin wrote:So members are in favour of the party marching with a banner at an anti-austerity march alongside their fellow workers? If so, then why vote for conference resolutions banning such activity. It appears to be an anti-working class move: a snub, a cop out Workers may get the impression that we are not anti-austerity, which will appear to align us to a very small group of right wing ToriesAbsolutely Vin.I guess you as a member and me as a sympathiser are just pissing into the wind suggesting other than more of the same. Meanwhile the same old tried and tested methods continue, that have got the SPGB where exactly?That's what I don't get. If the party was heaving with new blood, and we suggested trying something different from the usual stuff, then we'd be complete idiots to suggest so. But despite the low membership numbers, it's still us who are the idiots for suggesting some resources are diverted to trying something else. I don't get it.
DJP,I never claimed originality. I was responding to this sentence from YMS.
Young Master Smeet wrote:The universal feedback we get is 'I like your ideas,I agree with you, but I want to do something here and now'My point was in suggesting a potential way to attract those who like the idea of what the SPGB say, but want to join a political organisation that is doing something other than talking about revolution. (Not my view by the way, I know there are members working their arses off). People like to feel as though they are part of something that is alive and kicking. And if revolution is coursing through your veins…..well I'll just leave it there.Agitation is a revolutionary tool is it not? Anti-capitalist marches are a form of agitation, expressing anger at the system, with a potential to draw in people who feel the same.Even if education is the key, you still need to draw people in first. If a walk around Clapham common calling for revolution gets a few more bums on seats, then it's worth the effort.
JD and DJP,I'm not talking about hijacking other campaigns or thinking up what's reformist or not, such as animal rights etc. I'm not talking about handing out leaflets, I know branches do that.I'm talking about the SPGB holding its own anti-capitalist marches. Not standing on the sidelines saying politely, "We exist, please read our leaflet". What's the label, small party of good boys, or something like it?It's why I said it would have been easier years ago when member numbers were higher and a few branches could have organised such events. If other groups can and do hold demo's, marches why not the SPGB? It may have given the party a higher profile instead of the "good boy" and "armchair socialist" labels. Agitation is all about raising a dissenting voice, calling to angry, like minded people out there.I know it sounds cliched, but it works. The ones who get remembered are the ones who shout the loudest, and there are plenty of reasons to shout out against capitalism. I recall a brief discussion a few months back about WWI. A book about the anti-war movement, didn't mention the SPGB. I even recall some members being surprised. As the discussion unfolded it became clear as to why. The SPGB stood aloof from the anti-war movement and so paid the price in being forgotten.Perhaps the SPGB is over run with determinists who think the "objective conditions" will come along some day. Then all it takes is to play it safe, carry on treading water until those "objective conditions" turn up and the workers come flooding in. No need to "make socialists" then is there. Just need a few new members to balance the losses now and then.I'm no pessimist, far from it. I have every confidence the fortunes of the SPGB/WSM could be improved. The first step is to recognise a change is long overdue.
jondwhite wrote:Making non-socialist campaigns into socialist ones often thwarts the campaign and undermines it anyway. Not even through malevolence, just that a non-socialist campaign for non-socialist ends such as reforms are more effective at getting those reforms or at least getting more people involved to support it than are actual socialists.JD,I never said anything about taking over reformist campaigns.
SocialistPunk wrote:2) How would organising, say an anti-capitalist demo, confuse the SPGB message with an anti-capitalist message? I'm not talking about organising anti-austerity or save our NHS events. Those are clearly reformist requests. But an anti-capitalist orgainised event, demo etc, would likely attract some sympathetic minds.What I'm suggesting is quite simple, at least it would have been some years back, that the SPGB use tactics such as anti-capitalist demo's, events, etc to gain publicity.
Young Master Smeet wrote:SocialistPunk wrote:The whole point I'm making YMS, is for the SPGB to be the ones organising. A call to the workers to rally around. To possibly become the workers party that I've heard mentioned on this forum a number of times.To do those things indivdualy, as many members already do, does not present the case for soialism on a wide scale. It's not a proud banner for workers to rally under.Also, in case anyone gets the ipression, I'm not even hinting at entryism.1) It is dangerous to organise all political activity through one organisation.2) It would confuse the socialist message with the imediate aims and tactics of particular struggles.3) There are already people and groups, such as trade unions, organising these struggles.4) The working class doesn't need us to organise the class struggle.5) It would not move socialism one step nearer, nor improve the class struggle, objective conditions and class relations outweigh anythign we could add to the fight.
Appologies in advance for using the quote facility in full.My responses in order below.1) The Socialist Party of Great Britain, therefore, enters the field of political action determined to wage war against all other political parties,…..and calls upon the members of the working class of this country to muster under its banner to the end that a speedy termination may be wrought to the system which deprives them of the fruits of their labour,…"Not saying I think there should or even would be one mass workers party, but it's clear the early members of the SPGB where hopeful in drawing people to the cause, and thought it important to work towards that goal.2) How would organising, say an anti-capitalist demo, confuse the SPGB message with an anti-capitalist message? I'm not talking about organising anti-austerity or save our NHS events. Those are clearly reformist requests. But an anti-capitalist orgainised event, demo etc, would likely attract some sympathetic minds. I did previously state that the various demos attract publicity for the groups doing the organising. It's advertising. 3) Again I'm not talking about setting up a reformist wing of the SPGB. I'm talking about gaining publicity and sympathy, which in turn has a better chance of leading to increased support.Trade Unions are reformist in nature and in the UK are heavily centered around the Labour party.4) I said nothing about the SPGB organising the "class struggle". Just waving its banner a little more forcefully.5) This sounds somewhat deterministic. Are you suggesting the SPGB just sit and wait for the right "objective conditions" to arrive. Almost as if the SPGB is in a form of dormancy in order to conserve resources, in readiness for the right "objective conditions".Have I missed a change over the years? I thought the SPGB existed to "make socialists"? The more socialists the closer to the so called critical mass that has been mentioned numerous times on this forum.
The whole point I'm making YMS, is for the SPGB to be the ones organising. A call to the workers to rally around. To possibly become the workers party that I've heard mentioned on this forum a number of times.To do those things indivdualy, as many members already do, does not present the case for soialism on a wide scale. It's not a proud banner for workers to rally under.Also, in case anyone gets the ipression, I'm not even hinting at entryism.
Vin wrote:We need to change and take some risks.Workers are searching, it is all about what they see when they look our way. Secterian, utopian? or a party determined to wage war on the capitalist class and its system.It is a long road from which there is no return (to socialism) but while we are on our way…….anyway listen to the Hollies for the rest.My point being that we do not want to appear or to give the impression to be walking by our struggling fellow workers on the way to the promised land. We will never arrive without them.Young Master Smeet wrote:The universal feedback we get is 'I like your ideas,I agree with you, but I want to do something here and now' that our argument hat 'here and nbow' is building a revolt against capital doesn't dissuade them, until a critical mass exists, people won't join, until they join, there won't be a critical mass.(my bold)I've never understood why the SPGB can't be part of workers struggles and expressions of anger etc, even organising events such as demo's, community projects etc. Anything that gets across to as many people as possible and opportunities that show what we believe in, ie direct democratic participation, voluntary co-opration and organisation.Agitation and organisation, are core revolutionary tools, are they not?I get the attitude, I used to scoff at protestors begging their masters for a better deal, I still do to some degree. But guess who gets the publicity? Which groups attract new recruits eager to make a difference?I don't see why the tactcs and the message can't be combined?
ALB wrote:The Times is reporting today that according to booksellers books like The Establishment by Owen Jones, Chomsky on Anarchism and The Labour Party: a Marxist History by Tony Cliff and Donny Gluckstein "have been flying off the shelves since Jeremy Corbyn became Labour leader":http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/business/industries/retailing/article4596928.eceSome sort of confirmation that the heightened interest in "left" politics sparked off by Corbyn's campaign and election opens an opportunity for us too to put our views across.Don't wish to derail this thread, but thought it important to challenge some of ALB's conclusion.It may have been a couple of years ago now, my memory is a little fuzzy, but I recall seeing a BBC Newsnight report regarding the increase in sale of works by Marx. The report visited a "left" bookshop in London, with the owner saying all things Marx were flying off the shelves as soon as they were stocked.The below link is from 2008.http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7679758.stmThe point here is, that the interest in alternatives to capitalism long predates Corbyn's arrival on the Labour leadership scene. The opportunity spoken of by ALB has been around for seven years now.
A scene from the 1996 Star Trek film First Contact.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV4Oze9JEU0
Quote:Lilly "It took me six months to scrounge enough titanium just to build a four meter cockpit. How much does this thing cost?"Capt. Picard "The economics of the future are somewhat different. You see, money doesn't exist in the 24th century."Lilly "No money. You mean you don't get paid?"Capt. Picard "The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity."Vin wrote:Is the opposition to Tory reform to reduce tax credits and therefor workers wages at the expense of profit worthy of socialist support?Vin, did you have anything particularly in mind, regarding support?
