SB_UK
Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
TZM/TVP – then as a scientific analysis of human psychology, and a technical specification of a SPGB/WSM friendly world.There's nothing very challenging about it.We simply aim to answer the question- Why don't people do the right thing ?(eg see above post) and when people seek to do the right thing,- How do we change to a world in which the right thing is possible ?(elimination of money, legal system and a global organization without human hierarchy employing intelligent tech.).As mentioned above – you're up against a losing fight if you want to engage in politics – because of the symbiotic relationship between politics and nation state – and the need to transcend nation state in order to arrive at globbal unity.Emphasising the point that SPGB do have WSM – but where for the most part – politics is a variation of UKIP's 'Little Englanders' – "let's hope for a time when Britain is Great once more".That time has come and gone and wasn't very nice for all of the various places which had to suffer in order to swell the ego of this country.
"To those who state, we are greedy and selfish, I am a prime example, that we are not."Just copying from the post above."where we're back (once again) to the nature of the love/desire of money/power and how this (a human motivation which may be fed [in a capitalist societal infrastructure] or extinguished [in a SPGB infrastructure]) … …"The point being that life in a capitalist structure enriches for people who're selfish/greedy (for the majority) in a world where money is an absolute pre-requisite for survival.I'd probably argue that all people who use money are selfish/greedy.So – for instance – imagine selling up everything you have and going to live in a slum for the rest of your life.The vast amount of money which we'd all raise and could give away to making the lives of MANY people better – places our decision to stay in the relative comfort of England – a selfish decision.It's impossible to characterize anybody with any more than the lowest standard of living as not being selfish – because their lives (all of our lives in the rich world) could make the lives fo people in poor places immeasurably better.Note – this isn't an attack on you – I live in a mighty crumbling ex-council house which is worth a silly amount of money also.
"All decisions of a technical nature"WSM has assisted in the process of helping people to realise that we need global unity.TZM/TVP aims to identify the technological solutions to make that world work; so we're a by~definition science/technical movement – by that we've a defined goal which we must achieve for which we need an engineered solution.And then it's up to people (all equal) in that sustainable global environment to make their own decisions ie TZM/TVP dies with specification of the foundations of a globally sustainable / equality of all man world.In that world – all that man need do is be the best they'd like to be (collaboratively).-*-We can talk (politics) about the need for equality – but I think we're close to past the need for talk – and in the midst of the need for specification of action.But if you were to press me – we've actually specified most of the technological solutions.The only technological problem which remains is the internet access device … … maybe what to do with all of the various unrecycleable 'things' (eg cement) which human beings have introduced onto the planet. It's interesting that many of the problems I'm suggesting that sci/tech solves were actually created by sci/tech in the first place – emphasising the need to get the sci/tech solutions (rather than the talking) right.-*-So – the vision of SPGB will be realised (it's the only imaginable specification for the future) – but I see the change occurring without SPGB having to contest an election.If people wanted to make the case for money/globalization/capitalism trascending politics/nation/legal system as a precursor to the global unity which WSM desires – then I'd certainly be open to that idea; the point I'm making is that the existence of nation and politics are intertwined – it's ever so hard to break down the nation whilst retaining politics.So – Europe attempts it – but where European parliament attempts a dissolution in national boundaries so do we see a resurgence in nationalism (UKIP) when people begin to suffer; sadly people don't see that it's not actually loss of nation state which is responsible for the recession – but the *global* recession is caused by the decreasing rate of human population growth.People are just doing what people do – good when UK out of Europe, bad when UK in Europe – therefore good if UK departs Europe … … the logic is deeply flawed.So – I'd suggest that globalization was driven by the need to transcend national politics ie that the majority of political systems (and political power players) fight for the retention of nation states – for without them, they themselves lose power; where we're back (once again) to the nature of the love/desire of money/power and how this (a human motivation which may be fed [in a capitalist societal infrastructure] or extinguished [in a SPGB infrastructure]) … …or simply politics (with the exception of SPGB/WSM which places emphasis on W) is the problem which globalization needed to circumvent prior to a fair global organizational structure being welcomed. In that organizational structure – there will be nobody with more money/power than anybody else – because (as TZM describes) – there will be no money / legal system / exclusive ownership of anything limiting.
Now what's wrong with doing it by elections ie the standard way ?Well – there's no alternative to global equality.There may be some decisions to be made – but they'll all be technical and can be sorted by techno-types pre-calibrated to select the best possible solution.Problem with 'money/power' world is that the optimal solution is not selected – what's selected is the system which you've control over … .. .discard money/power (the love/desire of money/power) and the desire for collaborative elegance will shine forth.An insight into how techno types operate can be found in CERN.There was no adversarial approach – just a collaborative thrust which succeeded … … this spirit can be the world's given an elimination of money, power, legal system, government etc … … …
All that TZM really stands for in 1 or 2 words is pushing past money/legal system and to generate a global society in which all people are at liberty to be whatever they desire.Equality is a good way of putting it.Or perhaps making equality work – as we've a technical task in front of us to shift from a world in which most is owned by the few to a world in which all is owned by the global collective.The core part of TZM is that people are dragged in the wrong direction (towards desiring money/power ie being a typical capitalist) by life in current society – and that if we change societal structure that people will naturally travel in the opposite direction.So from good capitalistless in a capitalist infrastructure to good SPBGgers in a world without money/legal system/government etc … … now as it relates to human weakness – the fact that society ***CAN*** shift human beings into being 'good' capitalists (nasty people who desire nothing more than to eat the heads of all-comers) is (obviously!!) a weakness… … one which a global social societal structure (exactly as envisaged by SPGB) can prevent.If you like – consider the weakness 'original sin' – there's obviously something wrong with people in that human beings knowingly engage in acts which the individual absolutely knows are immoral.To anybody with a mind – the knowing engagement in immoral behaviours should be off limits.
So just coming back to Brian and Alb's points.The SPGB/WSM has struggled for 100 years – a period in which people have gradually awakened to the need for global equality, partly because of the efforts of political activism.The battle is close to won – and now you need a transition – which is where TZM fits in.We don't need to fight for people to realise that equality globally is the right thing – you guys have done all of that for us.We just need to make it happen ie boring practicalities.So – criticising TZM for lack of political presence isn't entirely fair – we're (like an engineering department) just interested in the nuts and bolts of making it happen.Whether it should happen is where the left vs right warfare of the last 100 years has been fought – and it's really so unsurprising that the left or global equality was (eventually!) going to win – a victory which was catalysed by technology.The Internet must be credited.-*-I think that many of us are about to enter a period of uncertainty – there won't be any need for any people who don't work voluntarily for the public good or at least by the motto 'do no harm' – so a global voluntaryist society awaits … … where people work because it brings them pleasure to benefit the lives of others — unimaginable huh ? but all the more bizarre – I can't imagine any other alternative.The all too popular image of mankind blowing themselves up through nuclear warfare is just silly.
"Much more constructive is to confront capitalism"Sadly – capitalism gains its strength from whether the individual (whether poor or rich) desires money/power.Capitalism is an expression of an inner motivation (which can be overcome) of the individual to acquire money, power, stuff etc … …It's the individual's motivation towards money and power which we as a society of individuals need to get over – rather than a capitalist ruling class.Sadly the poor which desire to be rich (ie to abuse the poor) are just as bad as the rich who are currently enjoying the 'benefits' (rentier capitalism) of the abuse.Think of all the poor who're desperate to win the lottery – the morality of them then entering the controlling capitalist class does not occur to them; I'd argue that the true spirit of an individual who follows our principles is to reject money – to reject any aspect of society which keeps human beings in a hierarchy in which the lower tiers suffer – see eg 'why equal societies do better' by Wilksinson and Pickett.ps I've changed the title (just a little) on purpose.And – I'm fairly sure that there's likely to be a high percentage of multi-generational wealth which does not have the love of money/power. Characterizing it as rich versus poor isn't fair – it's more individual trying to get over his/her own lesser motivation towards beating down their fellow man (and acquiring more of a limiting resource).Now – is a simple lifestyle the solution ?No – we can have the most amazing high tech WSM/TZM/TVP/SPGB world – but my personal obserrvation is that I'm happy with only 1 thing.And that's the sun.Who'd be in England as the weather turns !!
SP:"everyone is ready for the big change"If the majority want the world – then adversarial politics is dead; there's no adversary as such.Sure – we'll need a practical implementation, but that's not a political but an actual 'doing' process.So – the devil's in the detail of whether 'everyone' desires the change.As far as I can see it's irrational not to want it – and so all that's required is education (general) to allow people to see for themselves that the WSM/SPGB/TZM/TVP world is what they'd like.Though I'd simplify all of that down to just equality in limiting material world resources.It's remarkable the disdain for nature which capitalism has shown – and is in line with human beings believing that with wealth they buy themselves a stairway to Heaven- actually direct entry into Hell as addiction to money engulfs their entire existence.
So – in summary – capitalism is a formalization of a human desire (materialism).Education (into what is right and what is wrong <- true education) displaces the materialist drive with the drive to become personally better (of higher quality) compatible with harmonious social structure (global) co-existence.Materialist drive in individual/tribe (standard political demagogue rhetoric to make your country great)+Morality education->Social drive (Marx,Proudhon) culminating eventually in global unityIt will just happen – but we can speed up the transition – as long as people talk to as opposed to lecture at people.Tell somebody to do something and they'll do the opposite – it's what life living in capitalist society where everyone's a variation on a shady double glazing salesman seeking to sell you fresh air, teaches us.-*-So – what can we do to make this happen ?Ensure wikipedia is polished off, that an education can be delivered from its pages, that the global wireless internet is accessible worldwide and that there's a ROBUST device which people can use to access it.That robust device will have as little hardware as possible.So – no need for politics.
I'm pretty sure that capitalism was a workable system supporting the dramatic global human population expansion.And that socialism/anarchy is the only workable system which we can embrace when human population growth plateaus out, drops (and ages … …)The basic pattern will be seen everywhere (as described by Hans Rosling in his recent TV documentary) ie there won't be anywhere for people to get immigrant labour from soon.What's the best that we can do if we want to see the change we wish – ensure education material to all worldwide – a global wireless Internet and wikipedia will suffice.SPGB/WSM were just a little ahead of their time (the population expansion had not yet occurred when WSM were founded.Similarly: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encyclop%C3%A9distes did not have the global wireless internet.So – there's an inevitable transition underway – and it's playing out its final stages (towards 2050 I'd guess) … … and all that's up for grabs is how soon before complete collapse we can force transition.So – to play one's part in providing people with access to information (education) is all that's required to force the collapse of capitalism – whether through personal revulsion or through education driven reduction in family sizes.However, one important point to be made – is that the rich versus poor battle isn't useful UNLESS the poor wish to evenly distribute wealth to all people; if it's simply for a select few poor to occupy the position of power of the rich – well … … same old.The message I'd hang on to (stolen from Christianity) is that it's a personal battle to overcome the love/desire of money (as the root of all evil) or original sin – which capitalism is a social expression of.With moral education (ie the individual knowing right from wrong) the individual's motivation changes from selfish to social by itself … … so an evolutionary change in the individual/society with a moral (know what is right and what is wrong) education.The not so minor issue we have currently is a schism between Western style education and morality ie there's no morality in much of what is taught in school – they're simply 'schemes' which any one can pick up given hours and hours of learning.So – as an example – genetic modification is easy – but why're genetic manipulators not stopping to question the morality of modification of a system which they don't understand … … especially when it's known that just 2 hits can turn a biological system cancerous:http://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/tumor-suppressor-ts-genes-and-the-two-887How do I know that capitalism is dead ?I don't want any thing; once there is no desire for anything that money can buy … … well – you know that capitalism (which relies on you buying happiness) is dead.Personally – I do have a couple of things – but they're so badly made that they're forever broken, in need of repair … … as I've weeded my thingyverse down – there's been a sense of relief that I no longer need to look after x,y,z as opposed to any sadness at losing access to whichever service {insert consumer device} permitted.Note – I'm not against ALL material world manmade objects just poorly engineered, non-recycleable, non-upgradeable ie against the precise type of 'thing' which is generated by capitalism under the heading of obsolescence (technological/perceived).Re-iterating the point of an evolutionary change to Quality.Human population expansion -> Human population plateauCapitalism -> Socialism/AnarchySelfish motivaation -> Social motivationBasic essentials met (but poorly) -> Quality
A it happens – just watching this:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/11032571/Italys-Renzi-must-bring-back-the-lira-to-end-depression.htmland particularly the video at the bottom for Italy to list illegal activity as part of GDP.Anyway – as you know – TZM doesn't want to have anything to do with money – surely the video above speaks volumes about the idiocy of money.Anyway – average comment in the DT comments is as follows"On the internet Italy's population is listed at 57.5MM (2000), 55.2MM (2015E), 52.4MM (2025) and 43.0MM (2050)".There's a strong pattern of population reversal occurring.It's estimated that eg Japan will drop from 125 to 90 million by 2050 also.Bottom line – capitalism requires growth – growth cannot occur if populations drop.Capitalism IS dead – don't worry about killing it off – time will see to that.So it's an evolutionary change (see population growth curves eg Malthus) NOT revolutionary change which is responsible for the world's ageing/decreasing population.There's nothing that anybody can do to save capitalism (even if anybody's dumb enough to want to try) – it's **over** … … the basic idea of the SPGB/WSM has won … … it's now time to make it happen by increasing the education level of people up to the standard that they're ready for a one world system (another aspect of the evolutionary model of TZM).You don't need elections, party membership, words like 'worker' … … any more; they're all divisive ie separate people into self-interest camps – we at the point in human evolution (that word again!) where we need global unity.The SPGB/WSM has (in effect) won – and now it's time to make that world which it envisages workable.The world doesn't need the division which comes with tribal labels like socialist and capitalist – what we require is the most rational, sustainable system in place.This is a product of science, art, technology … … not politics, law, money – all anachronisms.I'd suggest that TZM views everything to do with politics, legal system and money – symptoms of the disease which prevent the *very* change which eg WSM/SPGB support.
