rodshaw
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LBird wrote:rodshaw wrote:I think that the differences in the wording he uses and the wording we use in addressing workers must be crucial to understanding why he thinks the SPGB (or some of its members at least) has mistaken ideas.
It's not 'differences in the wording', rodshaw, but differences in philosophy.Putting these arguments on paper, teaching them to classes, holding forth whilst pissed in the pub, or simply writing them on this site, won't change the fact that it's not 'wording' but 'ideas'.
But how do you convey the ideas without the wording? By using telepathy, or making animal noises? Morse Code or semaphore? What have you all been doing (some of you, evidently, not very well) on this forum? I can only assume, then, that in your dialogues with other workers about socialism, you use the same wording as the SPGB does. I'm not suggesting your view is wrong necessarily, but I want to know what you actually say to other workers that is different.Examples, please, outside of this forum? You can find lots of SPGB ones on this website – let's see yours.
What might be useful, in these discussions, would be if LBird could give us some actual written examples of how he has tried to convince the working class of the need for socialism, then we could compare these with what the SPGB says and see how they differ. What articles has he published, what letters has he written, what classes has he held and what did he say in them? In other words, how specifically does he engage with workers, apart from on this forum?If LBird were to publish a monthly journal like the Socialist Standard, what would he put in it and how would it differ from what we say? I think that the differences in the wording he uses and the wording we use in addressing workers must be crucial to understanding why he thinks the SPGB (or some of its members at least) has mistaken ideas.
If you want to read more about TUSC, you might be better amused by going to this website:http://www.tusc.co.uk
The article in the latest SS on non-violent revolution pointed to a study showing that state violence against substantial civil resistance was more often than not futile, and that peaceful opposition has generally been more effective in achieving ends (albeit obviously, not so far, majority socialist ones) than violent opposition.Once they realise their number's up, there won't be much the violent minority can do. Especially when there's every reason to think that most of the police and armed forces will have come over to the other side. After all, high-powered generals and the like still need minions to do their fighting for them.Would that we were anywhere near that stage.
SocialistPunk wrote:Although I think John Lydon has produced a lot of good music over the years, (his best stuff without a doubt when in the Sex Pistols) in general he himself is a muddled "bumhole" when it comes to joined up political thinking. So far, Russell Brand is more consistent and interesting when it comes to political thought, than Johnny.So you wouldn't say Lydon is a socialist punk then?
Well, I did suggest way back,"maybe a better policy would be for us to push the recently re-vamped WSM umbrella website as the flagship, and put more content on there. Maybe, for example, the general bit of this discussion forum should be on there rather than here."
Lidl, Waitrose or Fortnum & Mason?The working class – middle class – upper class categorisation is generally thought of as an economic or social one, which is ok as far as it goes. I seem to remember Barltrop using the term 'middle class' in The Monument, having qualified his use first. It's the political aspect people don't get .And it somehow just doesn't sound right that the more well-heeled, affluent types, though not capitalists, are part of the working class.In many ways we are strait-jacketed by our own terminology.
Nothing changes because the real increase in awareness – socialist consciousness – hasn't happened yet. The question is, can tactics be evolved and 'bigger connections' be made that will increase socialist consciousness, rather than consist of reformist or 'single issue' activity?
"We're socialists, we want to nationalise public services". No, I don't think that helps us at all. But there again she wasn't claiming to represent the WSM or the SPGB. Just a party with a similar name.At least we got a voice in the first two broadcasts, with as much air time as the other speakers.So what happened to Steve Clayton? I was looking forward to it.
"Harry insisted we should not allow the enemy to define the space within which we solve problems."I love that. It sums up the difference between reform and revolution.
Unsurprisingly, no mention of the capitalist class, or of owning and controlling the means of production and distribution.
