robbo203
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“This double standard perfectly illustrates the mainstream media’s approach on how to distort the crisis. First, twist the actual reports, with one-sided language and biased framing. But second, and arguably more importantly; ignore any of the history of Israel/Palestine, so that the attack from Gaza looks like an inexplicable, unprovoked spasm of violence and Jew-hatred.”
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True enough but there are double standards on both sides of the debate. The cold-blooded murder of 260 young partygoers at the Supernova festival in Southern Israel can no more be justified or rationalised away than the cold-blooded murder of hundreds of people in Gaza at the hands of the Israeli military. BOTH spring from the same sociopathic mindset that the death cult of nationalism fosters. BOTH need to be unequivocally condemned for the disgusting vile acts they are.
Anyone who imagines that committing such acts is going to advance their cause by one iota is deluded in the extreme. All it has done is to stoke up the hatred both sides feel for each other and strengthen the divisions of nationalism. Sadly, the outcome is going to be yet more deaths more pain, and more misery…
“It’s so easy to adopt a smug attitude when not actually experiencing what it’s like having to constantly live under a repressive regime.”
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It’s so easy to adopt a smug attitude in condemning those who argue that tit-for-tat violence is no way to combat a repressive regime. On the contrary, the chances are, in this instance, that it is going to provoke even more repression, more violence, more deaths, and even possibly a full-scale war with Iran. Is that what you want? Seriously? If not then instead of just pontificating, how about you tell us how you imagine this horrible situation can be resolved because I cannot see more violence being the answer at all.
I appreciate that I do not live under what you call a repressive regime (and might feel differently if I did) but actually sometimes that gives you a little more space to see things just a little more objectively…
With every passing week, it seems like the sick death cult of nationalism is deepening and strengthening its hold on the minds of people everywhere. It doesn’t bode well for the future. As if the war in Ukraine, the conflict between Azerbaijan and Armenia, the situation in North Africa, and the standoff over Taiwan were not enough – now we have the latest upsurge in violence in the Middle East
The headline from the Time of Israel newspaper screams:
“Iranian president backs assault on Israel, holds talks with Gaza terror leaders”
So what now? Can we expect another full-scale war to flare up in the Middle East as the Israeli state seeks violent retribution for what has happened? There is no way this tit-for-tat spiral of violence can be brought to an end except by coming to finally realise that nationalism is a mental disease that must be stopped in its tracks and uprooted once and for all if humanity is going to have any kind of future worth living. Hamas´ murderous actions are no more justified than the actions of the Israeli apartheid state and it is pointless and counterproductive to take sides in this utterly tragic and depressing state of affairs. That way only despair lies ahead
I see that tensions are rising at the moment between Kosovo and Serbia and there is talk of another war breaking out with the US and EU siding with Kosovo in urging the Serbian regime to scale down its military threat.
Kosovo, originally under Serbian control unilaterally declared its independence in 2008 and was supported by the West in that. Remind me again – what is the essential difference between Kosovo vis-a-vis Serbia and Donbas vis-a-vis Ukraine?
It all goes to show once again the stupidity, irrationality, and utter hypocrisy of all nationalist thinking and the warmongering nationalists
A long article on how the Western narrative on what is happening in Ukraine has been steadily losing credibility. War fatigue is setting in, to the frustration of the warmongers, and public opinion has moved towards stopping further military aid to the Zelensky regime
Here´s something posted by someone from the Ex Militant tendency on one of the debate forums I am on
I agree completely with the suggestion offered. Let’s do it
Bad news for the warmongers – at least those on the side of NATO and its puppet state – loved by patriotic liberals everywhere
Hopefully, the same development will be occurring in Russia and its backer regimes. Then finally we can look to an end to this stupid pointless barbaric war
The military-industrial complex and Ukraine
The Mad Propaganda Push To Normalize War Profiteering In Ukraine
“That statement, perhaps unwittingly, has devastating ramifications for the socialist revolution. The SPGB talks about a majority needing to understand and implement it. But if a figure of 99% or even 82% is required to bring it about and avoid a serious minority problem then you really are residing in the realms of cloud cuckoo land.”
………………………………….I don’t think so at all. Ideas don’t spread in the fashion you think you do. If 82% of the population were 100% committed to socialism that would suggest that most of the remaining 18% would be at least sympathetic to socialism. Why should that be a problem? It is inconceivable that the growth of the socialist movement would not also at the same time, alter the general social climate of opinion in a direction that favoured its further growth.
By the time we numbered even 25% of the population, I suggest that at least a further 50% would probably be “semi-socialist” in outlook. Certainly, it would be virtually impossible for capitalist governments by then to get away with waging stupid wars like the one currently being waged in Ukraine. By then there would already be a sea change in society´s value system which governments have to adapt to maintain legitimacy
One of the things that strikes me about this whole sordid business of the Ukraine war is the utter hypocrisy of the protagonists (on both sides mind you)
Here´s a video clip of Lavrov pointing out the hypocrisy of the US regime recognizing the right of Israel to annex the Golan Heights that previously belonged to Syria. on the grounds that was in Israeli national security interests to do so. Yet Blinken the US spokesman does not extend the same right to Russia to annex Crimea for precisely the same reasons.
Of course, this comparison could backfire on Lavrov because it implies a parallel between Russia’s and Israel´s situation and thereby justifies Israel´s takeover of the Golan Heights in a roundabout way. Still, it is instructive in showing the double standards of the capitalist warmongers. When it suits them international law will be set aside and conveniently forgotten
No one here (as far as I know) is defending Russian military aggression but what is conspicuously absent in PGB´s account is any reference to Ukrainian military aggression toward the Donbas. This region sought to break away from Ukraine following the illegal CIA-backed coup that brought into power a regime that pursued Russophobic discriminatory policies. Ukrainian military aggression against Donbas, in clear violation of the Minsk agreement, led to the deaths of thousands of people from 2014 onwards. (I believe the figure was 14,500 up until the Russian invasion but I might be wrong)
The point is you have to be even-handed in condemnation of military aggression. As I understand it, what sparked the Russian invasion was evidence that Ukraine was mounting troops and equipment to make one final big push to take back the Donbas and that this had been preceded by an upsurge in Ukrainian bombardment of the region. That was the trigger that started the Russian invasion.
Socialists support neither side in this capitalist conflict and this is what PGB, as a liberal, who evidently believes in the cause of a so-called “just war”, cannot seem to understand. He says:
“You say it is a “socialist principle” not to kill fellow workers in conflicts between capitalist states. But conflicts between capitalist states may have little or nothing to do with capitalism as such, inasmuch as they are not principally fought over resources, markets or trade routes etc. Putin’s war of aggression against Ukraine is such a one. ”
Well firstly, the protagonists involved are not likely to say that the reason why they are engaging in a war is to capture resources, markets, trade routes, and so on, and is rather naive to imagine they ever would say that. On the contrary, virtually without exception, both sides in wars. particularly in the modern era, will explain their motives in high-minded moralistic cum ideological terms such as “defending Western values”, “defending democracy” or “fighting the evil of fascism”. They have to as a way of justifying their actions. However, that doesn’t mean that economic motives are not the underlying causal factors and we should not be so gullible as to just swallow uncritically what the propagandists on both sides of any capitalist conflict tell us is the reasons why they are fighting.
Secondly, and quite apart from that, PGB doesn’t seem to grasp that it is the very concept of the capitalist nation-state that socialists call into question – not just the appalling consequences that flow from the actions of these entities. PGB thinks the nation-state is an entity that is somehow worth defending. That is the difference between him and socialists.
So yes we are more than just pacificists. We are hostile to the very socioeconomic construct that is the “capitalist nation-state”. You cannot separate support for a capitalist nation-state from support for the economic system that gave birth to this construct.
Finally, there is the question of the pain and suffering caused by war. The liberal identifies the cause of all this pain and suffering as the enemy who is driven by evil intentions to inflict harm on others and who must therefore be removed at all costs. But let’s be realistic here. The decision to militarily resist an invader is as much a cause of pain and suffering as the invasion itself. You only want to resist the invader because you think your nation-state, your so-called land, is worth having and defending. Obviously, socialists have no such delusions. For us, it does not matter what is the colour of the flag that hangs from your local town hall and we refuse to put our lives on the line for such an empty and meaningless cause.
The logic of the liberal nationalistic-minded belief in a just war leads us directly to the insanity of the situation we face today. Since the beginning of this year, the front line has barely budged. In fact, according to this article, the Russian side has gained slightly more territory overall than the Ukrainian side
Russia is seemingly content to continue a war of attrition which in the long run it is bound to win because of its numerical superiority. The day will come when Ukraine will not be able to offer any more serious resistance and the Russian military will very likely surge forward and take the remaining parts of Donbas and even possibly Odessa. I read somewhere that the rate at which Ukrainian troops are surrendering has recently stepped up; it numbers in the thousands. God knows how many have already lost their lives. Figures have been bandied around in the region of 200,000 or more. And that’s just the Ukrainian side. The number of wounded or scarred for life will be much more.
The thing is if you believe in the concept of a just war then thats it – you are committed to sending more troops into the meat grinder ´without any end in sight as a matter of high moral principle regardless of how many get slaughtered since the original “causus belli” still exists in your eyes. This is the reckless logic of the lunatic, the religious fanatic. However, once you start thinking pragmatically and start saying enough is enough then you are into a whole different ball game. You are starting to judge the merits of participating in the war in terms of the consequences of doing so. You are breaking with the moral fanaticism of the liberal idealist.
I would argue that the most logical and consistent expression of the pragmatic approach is, in fact, the socialist view. There is nothing to be gained by workers on either side by participating in this war and an awful lot to lose as we have plainly seen. If the pragmatic approach had prevailed this utterly disastrous and pointless war would never have occurred
This is interesting. Lavrov hints at the possibility of peace on certain terms though the article doesn’t mention Donbas. According to one commentator “Lavrov’s statement, then, does imply that Moscow would recognize Ukraine’s 1990 borders if Ukraine foreswore membership in NATO.”
Makes you wonder what is going on behind the scenes. On the other hand the article is from the Daily Express and that is a very unreliable source of information so who knows?
lizzie45; “The Ukrainians are attempting to defend their homeland in much the same way most people would attempt to defend their homes (and loved ones) against an intruder.”
That’s a ridiculous comparison. Your “home” is something tangible (bricks and mortar) as are your loved ones. Your “homeland” is not “your” homeland any more than Russian workers are said to own Russia in any meaningful possessive sense. The nation-state is a pure abstraction, the product of capitalist development. Benedict Anderson called it an “imagined community” and for good reason. And, actually, going to war in defense of your so-called homeland makes it far more likely that your home will be destroyed by missiles and your loved ones will be killed. It is far more sensible and pragmatic to offer no resistance or become a refugee than risk being killed for some dumb abstraction called Ukraine or Russia
Also, I love the way you bleeding-heart liberals defend the right of “Ukrainian” workers to misguidedly rise to the defense of their so-called land but you have absolutely nothing to say about the “right” of people in places like the Donbas or Crimea to equally misguidedly rise to the defense of their so-called land against Ukrainian aggression. What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, surely, but you never mention this do you? This stupid war probably would not have happened had Ukraine not broken the Minsk agreement and appalling though the Russian invasion was, we should try at least to be a bit more even-handed in our condemnation
Lizzie45: “That you’re unable to understand this will almost certainly be one of the reasons your party has been an abject failure for almost 120 years.”
If we have been such an “abject failure” why then are you so obsessed about the SPGB? I am sure there are more successful websites to which you can transfer your trolling activities if you are so convinced we are going nowhere. In any event, since the SPGB does not propose to do anything “for” the working class – we are not a leadership-based organisation and we maintain that the emancipation of workers must be carried out by the workers themselves (we are just a tool workers can choose to use to that end) – there is a sense in which the “abject failure” you talk of is really an abject failure of our class to take steps towards our collective emancipation. That presumably includes you Lizzie45, assuming you are a member of the working class…
While Ukrainian workers like their Russian counterparts go through hell and put their lives on the line for the sake of what they fancifully imagine is “their” country, their rulers have other plans. It seems the latter are quite happy to buy a bolt-hole in some other part of the world in the event that things go pear-shaped. With Putin I read somewhere that Venezuela was a possibility; with Zelensky, it seems Egypt might be on the cards (though doubtless, there will be other options including the USA)
An interesting article I came across on the “Naked Capitalism” website
“Marguerite Yourcenar salvaged one of the finest lines in all literature from the first version of her masterpiece Memoirs of Hadrian: “I begin to discern the profile of my death.” We are approaching that point with Ukraine, not just its military campaign, but also its economy. That baked-in collapse has been camouflaged by the bizarre pretense that there will be a huge reconstruction push, even more absurdly, funded by private sector interests. One has to think that the “rebuilding” patter is part of the cover for the fact that Project Ukraine is a lost cause.”
https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2023/09/the-coming-ukraine-collapse-and-the-rebuilding-headfake.htm
By all accounts, it looks as if the Ukrainian counteroffensive has not really gotten anywhere and is increasingly unlikely to get anywhere in the future with Autumn approaching and the return of the mud. You have to ask yourself, even from a capitalist point of view, what is the point of continuing this slaughter? Bleeding-heart hand-wringing liberals may protest that Ukrainian workers have every right to defend “their” homeland against the naked aggression of Russian imperialism. But you don’t have to be a socialist – we don’t give a flying fcuk about the capitalist nation-state or where its borders lie – to see that this is not going to get you anywhere. The only peace you are likely to achieve will be found in the cemetery.
Appalling though the Putin regime is, and reprehensible though its invasion was, I don’t believe it is seriously intent upon the military conquest of Ukraine. It would probably be satisfied with the territories it has annexed and an assurance that Ukraine will not join NATO. Pragmatically speaking, I would think the best thing the Zelensky regime could do now is sue for peace and accept the reality of a partitioned country. There is no way you are going to prevail over a country many times larger, that sees your backers – NATO – as an existential threat to its own existence and whose own military has now become much more battle-hardened and has learnt from the lessons of its past failures
By all accounts, the Ukrainian regime, on the other hand, is now virtually militarily exhausted and on its last legs and is only sustained by the infusion of military aid primarily from the US, which is likely to reduce sharply in the future. The economy is utterly wrecked and will remain so for years to come. The population has plummeted – in the main because of the diaspora but also because of the deaths of combatants (by some estimates roughly 700 Ukrainian soldiers are killed in action every single day on average). Even just the legacy of landmines will be an immense challenge to overcome in the years ahead (in Angola, decades after the civil war, they are still trying to clear away the landmines. see https://www.maginternational.org/what-we-do/where-we-work/angola/#:~:text=Angola%20remains%20one%20of%20the,over%2040%20years%20of%20conflict.)
Of course, the Zelensky regime will never agree to a ceasefire on the above terms and the Biden regime would not want to lose face (with elections coming up) by urging it to do that. So this appalling and utterly senseless human tragedy will continue.
The outcome? Who knows, but if the Ukrainian military does face collapse this could give the green light to the Russian military to surge forward and capture large chunks of Ukraine including Odessa. Or there could be a coup that ousts Zelensky with the support of a war-weary public. Or things could just go on and on into 2024, 2025, and beyond and just get progressively worse. Utterly depressing to think about it
