robbo203
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Fair point Alan if you are defining self government in this specific way. But in no way can this particular reading of the term be equated with the term “socialist government” which definitely implies the existence of a state in my view (and hence classes) and as such is an oxymoron
Is to use the term “self-government” for peoples’ power an oxymoron?
Alan, self government usually refers to the devolution of power from some central state to some region under its jurisdiction. So it implies the existence of a state and by extension class society.
If anarchists want anarchism – a stateless society – they should be joining the SPGB in their droves, not sniping at it from the side lines. You cant have a stateless society without getting rid of class ownership and it is the state that stands in the way of that happening
So it makes complete sense to democratically capture the state precisely in order to dismantle it along with capitalism at the same time. Does any anarchist seriously imagine the state is going to disappear of its own accord?
I would have thought it was pretty obvious why the concept of a “socialist government” aka state makes no sense. A state is an instrument of class rule. Socialism is a classless society. Ergo, socialism is a stateless/government-less society…
As for the idea of a “socialist prime minister and a socialist cabinet” John McEnroe said it best: “You cannot be serious!” What are these personages supposed to do in a society without money, wage labour , profit, taxes etc etc etc.
Perhaps Kaz should enlighten us. What would be their job description?
Much more could be said and it could be said much better but least it something people could link to in the meantime.
Have linked to it in several FB posts and am just sitting here watching the “likes roll in. Others here should do the same. Its quite uplifting
Indeed, and I suspect those “toadying up” to the technocrats will be in their element with a 2020 Summer School topic on ‘Technology’.
I cant quite see the logic of this. I voted for technology as the subject for discussion at the Summer School and there multiple aspects to this including the point that technology is never neutral in its impact on society and has negative as well as positive effects from a socialist point of view. In fact, there is a whole school of thought that focuses on how technology is structured in ways that reinforce and perpetuate existing power relations in society and thus takes , if any thing an anti technocratic stance. I hope this aspect of technology will be discussed as well as the potentially liberating aspects of technology which of course we must discuss as well (which does not mean falling back on some kind of crude technologically determinist view of the world)
So I, for one, think it was an excellent choice for a theme at Summer school and not before time. We have tended to neglect the subject and its many ramifications for too long
The SPGB like a magnet attracts iron filings, attempts to draw the masses in our direction. Nobody AFAIK purposefully searched out the SPGB but by fortuitous events and accidental coincidence came across it. Our job is to make that a lot easier.
Well some people I have corresponded or debated with on the social media have apparently “purposefully searched out the SPGB” having come across the name. Maybe coming across the name was accidental but it seemed to have aroused their curiosity
Your general point is absolutely valid though. The task of socialists is to make it much easier for non socialists to come across the SPGB and by far the best way of doing that is via the social media – for example by linking articles or pamphlets on this site on various FB sites
Probably more than 90 percent of new members to this party join view the internet having heard of us on the internet. The more contacts we generate , the more members we make and the more rapidly we grow as a movement . Its as simple as that
Every member or sympathiser can help by joining in this campaign. It takes a minimal amount of time and effort to make a big difference if we all collectively made that effort
http://socialismoryourmoneyback.blogspot.com/search?q=ten+minutes
This sort of simplicity and oppositionism is why the MLs are thriving.
Are they thriving, though? My impression is quite different although I guess it depends on what you mean by MLs
You all are just so against the Hostility aren’t you? Marx in non-heaven! That’s the best bit.
Hostility should be graduated and fine-tuned otherwise it becomes just a blunt instrument that defeats its own purpose
Just as there is a spectrum of political opinion along which one can place different organisations in terms of their proximity to or distance from our way of looking at the world so there is spectrum of political opinion within such organisations and indeed within the SPGB too. We shouldn’t make the mistake of regarding organisations as monolithic entities
I regard the MFP as being very much “fellow travellers” in wanting essentially what we want. Sure there are some differences in approach but markedly less so than in the case of Frescoists and I am not sure all such differences apply in the case of particular individuals within the MFP
It would be worth discussing what these differences are and whether they can possibly be narrowed or even overcome. I agree with Alan that some kind of joint discussion meeting with them might be fruitful
Nick Tapping is still around as he puts in an occasional appearance in our Facebook page. He knows us of old.
Nick’s views are vert close to ours if not identical – like this one I just come across on the MFP FB site:
“Marx envisioned a global society which has made the monetary system and the state obsolete
What most people think of as communism is in fact state controlled capitalism..ie, the state controlling capital”A strong argument for a self regulating system of stock control as key mechanism for resource allocation in a socialist society
We must make it clear from the start that we are not of that ilk. Unfortunately, as soon as “socialism” or “Marx” are mentioned, no one wants to listen, because of the damage the Left has done!
This is true up to a point, I do notice though a countermovement even within Left circles to somewhat undo the damage the Left has historically done. It began with a open disassociation from Stalin (commencing obviously with the Trots) and in small ways is working towards a disassociation from Lenin, in many ways the fountainhead of the rottenness we have had to put up with as socialists. The concept of “Marx the ecosocialist” is a way of expediting this process…
There is also Howard Parson’s book “Marx and Engels on Ecology” (1977) – a classic of sorts and a great source of quotes illustrating their sensitivities to ecological issues
Netanyahu accused the International Criminal Court of anti-Semitism over its plan to pursue a war crimes probe in the Palestinian Territories.
“New edicts are being cast against the Jewish people – anti-Semitic edicts by the International Criminal Court telling us that we, the Jews standing here next to this wall…in this city, in this country, have no right to live here and that by doing so, we are committing a war crime,” he said. “Pure anti-Semitism,”Is there any evidence that the ICC is calling into question the so called right for Israel to exist or is thus just the delusional rantings of a Zionist nationalist? The sooner all nation-states disappear along with capitalism off the face of the earth, the better! At least we wont have to put up with these stupid childish nationalist mind games any longer
This landed in my in-tray
Might be worth contributing to the comments section
