robbo203
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It would be interesting to hear how our neoliberal pro-capitalist Trotskyist here views Biden’s plans on strengthening and expanding NATO’s role in the world.
Presumably he sees this as another example of the vast benefits that will be showered upon the American working class by the election of Biden which socialists have overlooked by naively opposing the militaristic jingoism of both the Democrats and Republicans.
https://theconversation.com/russia-biden-brings-a-new-us-challenge-to-putins-backyard-149765
Poor little robbo doesn’t realize that by not voting he is helping the opposition, the greater evil. In the meantime, while you wait for the socialist candidate to appear on the ballet, he says “Let them eat cake!” “ACA is not perfect, so kill it!” “Social Security is not perfect, kill it!”. Champagne socialists, who enjoy all the fruits of a bourgeois life while denying others of them, are the worst kinds of fascists. In fact you’re worse, you would take their cake away from them and let them starve.
LT
You are getting more ridiculous by the minute. (And by the way aren’t you being a bit a presumptuous implying I am a champagne socialist. Would that I could afford a bottle of champers right now but I’ve got the rent to pay)
Since you evidently know nothing about socialism or how socialists think, let me try to explain a thing or two to you. Completely contrary to what you think, we have got nothing against workers getting what they can out of the system that screws them over. The idiotic words you put in our mouths – like “Make the working class hurt, so we can prove our point of being “principled” – is actually laughably wide of the mark. If that were the case how would it square with our views on trade unionism for instance. We fully support the principle of militant trade union action on sound lines to get better pay and working conditions and, indeed, many socialists in this movement are themselves active trade unionists
As for reforms, I repeat again – socialists recognise that some reforms can be of benefit to workers. We dont oppose reforms – where did you get this stupid idea from? What we oppose is the strategy of reformism, of advocating reforms. If you go down that road you might as well relinquish any claim to being a socialist or pursuing socialism . Inevitably socialism will be side-lined and postponed indefinitely in the struggle to reform capitalism
You cant try to simultaneously end capitalism and mend capitalism. It has unfortunately to be one other the other. Actually, if anyone is enabling the working class to hurt it is you my little reformist friend. You fully support the perpetuation of a system that cannot but hurt the working class. Indeed you openly admit to supporting a neoliberal capitalist party like the Democrats. There is only one way in which capitalism can be administered and that is against the interest of workers and in the interests of capital.
One final point. Your tiresomely repetitive jibes at anyone who disagrees with you as a “fascist” makes you sound like a fourteen year old, going on 11. who has just encountered a whole new world of political ideas. Isn’t it about time you grew up and matured politically? According to your way of thinking even somebody who voted for the Green party would be a fascist cos they didn’t vote for your favourite Neoliberal
Pathetic really. About time you learnt something about what fascism is (and is not) instead of droning on endlessly about it like some politically precocious and edgy schoolkid
More downright dishonesty from Leon Trotsky
A fascist is defined by his or her actions. Denying reality is part of the life of a fascist. The arguments here have become an echo chamber of utter stupidity: “Progress is made by not voting” and that given a choice “the greater evil is better than the lesser evil”.
- NOBODY here is suggesting “progress is made by not voting “- at least, no one in the WSM. The WSM advocates the use of the vote to achieve socialism and indeed has been criticised by some on the Left, including trots, precisely for advocating what they call the “parliamentary road to socialism”. How ironic! So the truth is the direct opposite of what LT claims. It just that socialists do not believe progress can be achieved by voting for capitalist politicians who advocate the retention of capitalism which is, in case LT is not aware, the system we live under. If you are advocating more of the same how is this “progress”?
- NOBODY here is suggesting that given a choice “the greater evil is better than the lesser evil”. This is a particularly disingenuous claim. How on earth LT imagines anyone here has suggested that voting for Trump is better than voting for Biden, god only knows. LT must be living in his own little echo chamber. Socialists can acknowledge that things might be marginally better for workers under Biden than Trump just as we can and do acknowledge that some reforms can benefit workers. Its just that we dont advocate reformism as such just as we dont advocate voting for any capitalist politician, be they the lesser evil or the greater evil. To do so would be to trap yourself on the perpetual merry-go-round of capitalist politics since the logic of such thinking necessary means the indefinite postponement of socialism as an objective
It would be refreshing if LT – just for once – actually addressed the question of what socialists DO stand for instead of, time and time again, dishonestly imputing to us certain views that we very clearly do NOT stand for
Reality check. If everyone did what the pseudo socialists wanted voters to do in the Nov. 3 election – don’t vote – Trump, the greater evil, would have won.
I think you are slightly confused LT
The pseudo socialists, as represented here by your good self, actually wanted people to vote – but for pro capitalist Biden rather than the pro-capitalist Trump
The real socialists, of course, did not want people to vote for either of these capitalist candidates. However, had we been in position to be able to convince people not to vote for Biden or Trump then it follows we would also be in a position strong enough to put up candidates ourselves, And obviously we would then be urging workers to vote for these candidates even if you, as a non socialist, would doubtless continue wanting to vote for someone like Biden
So once again LT your argument falls flat on its face, I’m afraid
I see from Wikipedia he is related to Helen Suzman, the prominent opponent of Apartheid in South Africa when apartheid was still going. ( I vaguely recall her when I was a teenager living in South Africa)
James’ book <i>Affluence Without Abundance: The Disappearing World of the Bushmen</i>. sounds very interesting – shades of Marshall Sahlin’s seminal “Stone Age Economics: The Original Affluent Society”
Do you have any links to useful articles he might have written, Thomas? What he seems to be saying would indeed seem to be quite relevant to what we are saying and for that reason, I agree it would be worth contacting him
US fascists suppress the vote. Some BMs on this site like robbo take it one step further and encourage voters to tear up their ballet. “Long live the greater evil” say the US fascists and their supporters her
Now you are being dishonest LT.
I didn’t say voters should “tear up their ballot”. I said they should “spoil their ballot” (which means something different) if there is no socialist candidate. Spoilt ballots at least get registered, torn up ballots dont even get to go in the ballot box at all. You might as well not even bother voting at all in that case
As for your other comment I treat that with contempt it deserves, There are no supporters of Trump on this site that I know of. No one here would come out with such a dumb remark “as Long Live the greater evil”
Socialist support neither the “greater evil” (Trump in the case) nor the “lesser evil” (Biden) but there is at least one fervently anti-socialist supporter of Biden’s neoliberal capitalist agenda I know of on this list who clearly does support the latter.
Namely your good self….
Whoosh … right over your head. You missed the point. Your ideas hurt the working class, my ideas help the working class. Continue living in your bubble, rejecting the reality working class families have to face every day.
LT
Sigh. Once again – socialists dont oppose reforms but reformism. Reformism indefinitely postpones socialism and keeps intact the very system that hurts the working class, which system can only be administered against the interests of the working class and in the interests of capital instead – namely capitalism. Or do you seriously think capitalism can be administered otherwise?
Since its pretty clear that you support the retention of capitalism by your entrenched opposition to revolutionary socialism and by your endorsement of the neoliberal pro-capitalist Democratic Party, doesn’t it strike you as being pretty rich of you to claim that the ideas of others here “hurt the working class.” That’s called projection.
In fact its YOUR ideas that hurt the working class, though you apparently can’t see this It is YOUR ideas that help to ensure workers remain forever submissive wage slaves. You want to condemn workers to endlessly struggle for the breadcrumbs that fall from capitalists’ table whereas genuine socialists want our fellow workers to take over the whole damn bakery
Perhaps you should follow your own advice – continue living in your own little bubble, rejecting the reality working class families have to face every day but please dont pretend that you have any intention of working to eliminate that reality that condemns these families to struggle under a system of wage slavery and perpetually hurts them.
Please dont pretend that you are some sort of socialist because that is what you are emphatically not.
Only the fascists want the ACA struck down. And there are many on this site. They want to see the working class suffer more than they already are. In other words, take what little they have and let them starve and die. We need to prove our point, say these champagne socialists, that the greater evil is better than the lesser evil.
This is really getting out of order now. Your insults are becoming more colourfully surreal and ridiculous by the day. There are no fascists on this site that I am aware of and, as has been explained to you several times now, socialists do not oppose particular reforms like the ACA but rather reformism – the advocacy of reforms as a strategy because it inescapably detracts from a revolutionary perspective . It has also been pointed that we agree that some reforms can benefit workers though, of course, such benefits can also be whittled away at a time of economic downturn. We are ourselves members of the working class so why should we want to suffer more along with our fellow workers?
Try to be a little less shrill and more honest and level headed in your criticism . Criticism is always welcomed but the kind of trollish comments you are coming out with lately makes it very difficult for anyone to take you seriously as a critic.
You’ve got to love the latest argument from these pseudo socialists
LT
At least we are advocating socialism ; you are not . And you have the perfect excuse for putting socialism perpetually on the back boiler (if you were ever interested in it in the first place which I doubt) – namely, rallying the lesser evil cause of Biden and his neoliberal cronies. That is because your Democratic Party will never realise the reformist expectations you place on it. Capitalism will grind your hopes into bitter disappointment. You wait and see.
If opposing a capitalist party like the Democrats make us “pseudo-socialist” what does supporting such a party make you?
This article is interesting for exposing the very flawed system of “democracy” in the US
When our companion World Socialist Party — the Socialist Party of Australia — stood for the seat of Melbourne Ports in the 1934 federal election, our candidate urged “people not to vote for him unless they understood socialism and its implications”.
He got 10% of the vote against a formidable campaigner Jack Holloway, head of the Melbourne Trades Hall Council, who had actually defeated the Prime Minister of Australia, Stanley Melbourne Bruce, at the previous election.
And during the election the “communist comrades” called us “social fascists”.
Bit like somebody here calling us “Trumpers” because we refuse to vote for the arch capitalist Biden (along with Trump)
There is no contradiction in what I said at all LT
I was not say dont vote at all under any circumstance. Rather I was specifying the circumstance when one should vote – when there is a socialist on the ballot
Even when there is no socialist on the ballot you can still vote by spoiling your ballot. Spoiling your ballot is still voting. It is registering a protest even if it does not count towards electing a candidate
LT
So called public ownership is a complete misnomer. The Public do not own a state owned industry any more than they own one in the hands of a private corporation. State property is the collective private property of a ruling class – the national capitalists
Engels made this very point over 140 years ago:
“The modern state, no matter what its form, is essentially a capitalist machine — the state of the capitalists, the ideal personification of the total national capital. The more it proceeds to the taking over of productive forces, the more does it actually become the national capitalist, the more citizens does it exploit. The workers remain wage-workers — proletarians. The capitalist relation is not done away with. It is, rather, brought to a head. “
(Socialism: Utopian and Scientific)
You have yet to show me how not voting changes things. Please provide an example anywhere in the world. I’m waiting.
Nobody has suggested not voting. Rather what has been suggested is not voting for any capitalist politician he or she be a “lesser evil” or a “greater evil”. Voting for a capitalist politician means endorsing capitalism, And as long as you continue to endorse capitalism things wont change I afraid – not in any fundamental significant sense. A tiny parasite class will continue to enrich themselves at the expense of the great majority whose lives will be rendered insecure and relatively if not absolutely impoverished
The only way you can administer capitalism is in the interests of capital and against wage labour. Even a Bernie Sanders government, never mind a neoliberal like Biden, will in the end be forced to side with the capitalists against the working class. Whether or not he is happy with such a prospect is completely besides the point. The destiny of a Sanders government is not in his hands
So no – not voting wont change things . Only voting for a genuine alternative to capitalism and its wage system will do that. Until that happens on a sufficiently large enough scale nothing will change
