robbo203
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That’s a good article by Jonathan Cook you posted, Alan
I was struck by one passage
Paradoxically, at the same time as Boris Johnson’s government has been seeking to silence criticism of Israel, it has also been demanding an end to what it calls “cancel culture” at universities – chiefly attempts by students to deny a platform to racist and transphobic speakers.
Surely the witchhunt and sacking of Miller is a prime example of “cancel culture”?
Yeah, I know. Remind me, how many revolutions have you spontaneously erupted lately? One? Half? A quarter? Zero? Oh, yeah, zero. Is that what oblivion looks like? Well, you’re welcome to it. Enjoy.
At least, TrueScotsman, we are socialists; you sadly are not. You are a bootlicking supporter of the billionaire-friendly Chinese capitalist regime. The only kind of revolution your way of thinking could ever countenance is a bourgeois-capitalist one.
True, a socialist revolution may never materialise. That would be your loss as well as ours as workers, sneer at though you will. Your rhetorical question – how many revolutions have we spontaneously erupted lately? – only highlights how remote and opposed are your ideas to revolutionary socialism. It is not up to the SPGB to foment a socialist revolution. Such a revolution can only be made by the working class as a whole; it cannot be led or imposed from above. If it were (and your rhetorical question implies that you think it should be) it would not, and could not, possibly be a socialist revolution
So keep up with sneering if you must; it only shows you up for who you are. An apologist for capitalism
“So far in this exchange I have maintained what I would consider a degree of civility towards you. However I now weary of your ad hominems.”
Hear! Hear!, Alan!
I am surprised by the degree of forbearance you display in your dealings with TrueScotman whose relentless reliance on ad homs – some very much below the belt – is proof enough, if proof were needed, just how weak are his actual substantive arguments. They serve merely as a distraction from the latter.
In any other forum but this he would have long ago been booted out as troll. Perhaps he needs to reflect on this and adjust his behaviour to something approaching what we might expect of an adult
TruesScotsman STILL doesn’t get it. He never seems to learn anything from this discourse but rambles on with the same old dreary monologue.
Socialists DO NOT take sides in inter capitalist rivalries.
We no more support imperialist capitalist America than we support imperialist capitalist China. A plague on both their houses!
If state-capitalist China is building up its military capacity in response to the military threat of American capitalism we no more support this than we support the US surrounding China with military bases. We don’t pick sides. We oppose ALL of capitalism’s nation-states and the toxic anti-working class ideology of nationalism
TruesScotman is a self-declared nationalist and a fanatical anti-socialist to boot, a stooge and bootlicker of the Red Bourgeoisie and their billionaire-friendly political henchmen in power in Beijing.
Politically, he stands in complete opposition to the interests of the Chinese working class whose interests cannot be served by promoting China’s model of capitalism – or any other model of capitalism – as something to be emulated
I see there is a talk on Chinese state capitalism tomorrow (sept 26th) on discord. Perhaps TS can chip in given his support for the regime
Got this in my intray
“A reminder of tomorrow’s Discord public meeting, specifically arranged
to suit time zones east of UK – Sunday 26 September 10am BST (GMT + 1).CLOSE UP WITH STATE CAPITALISM IN CHINA
Andy Thomas talks about his personal experience of doing business in
China, where tightening bureaucratic control is clashing with the
aspirations of the rising capitalist class.”TS I would far sooner be a “purist snowflake”, as you call it, than a deluded bootlicker of Chinese state capitalism (or any other version of capitalism) with its imperialist ambitions to match those of any other imperialist power under global capitalism
Our resident bootlicker of Chinese state capitalism, TrueScotsman, has a touching naivete as to the motives that drive this imperialist power. It’s the same kind of wishy-washy arguments that supporters of the Gates Foundation or some other such charitable concern wheel out in support of their pet concern and TS could just as easily slip into the role of a supporter of the Gates Foundation as he is of Chinese imperialist policy.
Philanthrocapitalism has a hidden agenda and it comes with strings attached. Chinese capitalist aid to Africa and elsewhere is not fundamentally driven by a benevolent concern for the well-being of Africans; rather it is about capturing markets and securing access to resources in the long run. Only a gullible fool would think otherwise.
Here is quite a useful article I’ve randomly picked that gives the lie to TS’s pro-capitalist propaganda and there are plenty more articles from multiple sources that arrive at the same conclusion
Capitalist China is an even more unequal society than capitalist US:
The level of income inequality in China today is very high. According to the official data (which do not provide micro information that can be independently verified), China’s Gini coefficient (a measure of inequality that ranges from 0 to 1) is around 0.47. By comparison, that of the United States is around 0.41
The Red Bourgeosie are doing very nicely thanks to the business-friendly anti-working class regime that administers China. Beijing is now home to more billionaires than any other city in the world
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-56671638
China is a capitalist paradise for the super rich
More in response to our rabid anti-Marxist-cum-anti-socialist, TrueScotsman
I dispute your contention that China is a capitalist country. It is not. It has a mixed economy but the capitalist class does not pull the strings there
A so-called “mixed economy” IS a capitalist economy. It is simply a mixture of state capitalist and corporatist capitalist ownership and control of the economy. Since you evidently don’t understand the first thing about Marxism let me remind you what Engels had to say on the subject of state ownership:
The modern state, no matter what its form, is essentially a capitalist machine — the state of the capitalists, the ideal personification of the total national capital. The more it proceeds to the taking over of productive forces, the more does it actually become the national capitalist, the more citizens does it exploit. The workers remain wage-workers — proletarians. The capitalist relation is not done away with. It is, rather, brought to a head (Socialism: Utopian and Scientific)
Once again, for the benefit of your political education in which you are, evidently, sorely lacking, the capitalist class DONT NEED TO BE in political control. They don’t need to “pull the strings” in that sense. They can leave that to their political henchman. In China, their political henchmen are pseudo-communist Party. The CPC administers the wages system otherwise known as capitalism in the only way it can be run – in the interests of capital and against the interests of the Chinese working class
I don’t know how often this bears repeating, the Chinese model is one of the most democratic in the world. It is extremely responsive and elections are held up and down the system.
Absolute tosh. You evidently live in some parallel universe in which the real-world facts matter not one wit. Even in terms of the limited concept of bourgeois democracy, the Chinese regime is one of the LEAST democratic. It is a de facto one-party state in which a handful of other minor parties are permitted to exist only by virtue of being under the systematic and wide-ranging control of the CPC itself. There is precious little, if any, press freedom. Marxists in China are routinely subjected to suppression for criticizing the regime. Like all capitalist states, in the Chinese capitalist state, ALL the big decisions are made at the top and imposed downwards, both in the political and economic realms. This is the antithesis of democratic decision-making
“And, no, opposition to this regime is not in the least “racist””
Yeah, it is. You think you know better than the “ignorant yellow hordes”. Well guess what, they’re Marxists but one’s with balls.You’re a pathetic joke. When have I have ever used expressions like “ignorant yellow hordes” or even hinted at such an attitude, eh? I stand four-square with the Chinese workers in their struggles against the parasitic red bourgeoisie and their political henchmen, the so-called CPC. Of course, Chinese workers like British workers hold political views such as nationalism with which I strongly disagree. But that does not mean that I don’t identify and strongly support the interests of these Chinese or British workers in their struggles against their respective sections of the capitalist class.
You are a thoroughly dishonest and unscrupulous individual in the way you go about debating opponents in your usual sneering disdainful manner. No one takes you seriously here, or doubtless anywhere else, you obsequious bootlicker of the Chinese billionaire class and their political henchmen. Crawl back under whatever stone you emerged from in the first place since you seem incapable of constructive and serious debate.
TrueScotsman
In response
All states are authoritarian. Are you that politically naive as to think otherwise?
That’s exactly my point, you silly sod. Capitalism is inherently undemocratic and capitalism is worldwide and most definitely includes China. Ergo, the regime there is not democratic and in fact, is even more authoritarian – based on a top-down model of decision making – compared to most other capitalist regimes (that I equally oppose)
Proving you know nothing about the role of the parties even though I went to the effort of providing a very good link on the subject for your edification. Your ignorance thus, is willful.
Sigh. You are an ignoramus if you seriously think the mere existence 8 other minuscule political parties whose leadership is selected by the CCP and whose membership is scrutinized and regulated by the CCP signifies a flourishing political democracy even in bourgeois terms. These so-called minor political parties are only permitted to exist insofar as they defer to the CCP. A movement like the WSM, if it were to operate openly in China, would pretty soon be crushed and outlawed by this obnoxious regime. Our members there have to operate in a climate of secrecy and fear. Get real, TS The Chinese regime has been systematically persecuting Marxists while absurdly claiming allegiance to Marxism
You link to an article by the South China Morning Post on the political opposition. The Post is a Taiwanese publication. Taiwan, the home to the fleeing fascist Kuomintang.
I don’t care what the SCMP is. Are the facts that it provides true or false? That’s all that matters. There are plenty of other sources I could equally quote that come to the same conclusion. It’s rich you talking about fascism when you are an avid supporter of what is, in any case, a semi-fascist state capitalist regime
The Chinese working classes support their government. Your opposition to that government is opposition to the working classes themselves. They are not interested in the views of fanatical sectarian snowflakes. They want rising living standards and sovereignty. Thanks to the CCP they have both.
This only goes to show what a muddlehead you are. The working class in the UK or the US voted in their governments. Therefore, according to your ridiculous logic, we should not be critical of the governments of the UK or the US because to do so would be to express “opposition to the working classes” in these countries. Also, like the typical bourgeois bootlicker you are you attribute the …erm … rising living standards of Chinese workers to the CCP – not the working class that produces the wealth in society.
“And, no, opposition to this regime is not in the least “racist””
Yeah, it is. In your view the 96 per cent of the population who support their government are ignorant children, too stupid to know what is in their best interests. You, on the other hand, with your white savior complex believe you can ride in on your white charger and free the dirty hordes from their infantile false consciousness…or something like that, right?
This is so dumb it is difficult to know where to start in deconstructing this garbage. Firstly, as stated before, the figure of 96 percent means virtually nothing in what is a de facto one-party state. Secondly, once again what is in the slightest “racist” about opposing the Chinese state capitalist regime. You don’t even attempt to explain. It goes to show just how dishonest and devious you are. I fully support the Chinese workers in their class struggles against their Chinese capitalist bosses. Does that make me a racist too? You are a fool someone clearly doesn’t know how to argue their way out of a paper bag. And thirdly while I disagree with the pro-capitalist political views of most Chinese workers just as I disagree with the pro-capitalist views of most workers in the West, in no way does that mean that I think these workers are stupid. Stupidity has to do with the mental capacity of workers to think for themselves and change their ideas. Workers are not stupid. It’s just that most of them currently hold views that are actually antithetical to their interests. It is their interests that I fully support, not the views they currently endorse such as nationalism which actually work against their interests. Big difference. And unlike you with your anti-Marxist ideas about revolution, I emphatically do not exhibit a savior complex of any kind. The emancipation of the working class must be carried out by the working class itself, not some Leninist vangaurd
“Unlike you, I am not selective in the capitalist regimes I oppose”
(Yawn.) China’s is a mixed economy with a communist party run government. They are working towards full communism by 2121. Meanwhile your party will remain a steadfast bastion of irrelevancy. Bravo!Yawn indeed. China is a 100% capitalist economy based on a mixture of corporate and state capitalist control and ownership of this economy. It is based on a system of generalised wage labour, therefore it is fully capitalist from a Marxian standpoint. There is zero possibility of the regime, which profits handsomely from this arrangement and bends over backward to accommodate the billionaire class in its ranks, ever working towards full communism. You are a fool if you think otherwise. In fact you are so deluded and divorced from the real world it is difficult to imagine things getting even worse. The first step on the road to achieving full communism will be to democratically overthrow this obnoxious anti-working-class regime in China you so cravenly admire but which represents an, as yet formidable, obstacle on the road to communism
TrueScotsman
In response
All states are authoritarian. Are you that politically naive as to think otherwise?
That’s exactly my point, you silly sod. Capitalism is inherently undemocratic and capitalism is worldwide and most definitely includes China. Ergo, the regime there is not democratic and in fact, is even more authoritarian – based on a top-down model of decision making – compared to most other capitalist regimes (that I equally oppose)
Proving you know nothing about the role of the parties even though I went to the effort of providing a very good link on the subject for your edification. Your ignorance thus, is willful.
Sigh. You are an ignoramus if you seriously think the mere existence 8 other minuscule political parties whose leadership is selected by the CCP and whose membership is scrutinized and regulated by the CCP signifies a flourishing political democracy even in bourgeois terms. These so-called minor political parties are only permitted to exist insofar as they defer to the CCP. A movement like the WSM, if it were to operate openly in China, would pretty soon be crushed and outlawed by this obnoxious regime. Our members there have to operate in a climate of secrecy and fear. Get real, TS The Chinese regime has been systematically persecuting Marxists while absurdly claiming allegiance to Marxism
You link to an article by the South China Morning Post on the political opposition. The Post is a Taiwanese publication. Taiwan, the home to the fleeing fascist Kuomintang.
I don’t care what the SCMP is. Are the facts that it provides true or false? That’s all that matters. There are plenty of other sources I could equally quote that come to the same conclusion. It’s rich you talking about fascism when you are an avid supporter of what is, in any case, a semi-fascist state capitalist regime
The Chinese working classes support their government. Your opposition to that government is opposition to the working classes themselves. They are not interested in the views of fanatical sectarian snowflakes. They want rising living standards and sovereignty. Thanks to the CCP they have both.
This only goes to show what a muddlehead you are. The working class in the UK or the US voted in their governments. Therefore, according to your ridiculous logic, we should not be critical of the governments of the UK or the US because to do so would be to express “opposition to the working classes” in these countries. Also, like the typical bourgeois bootlicker you are you attribute the …erm … rising living standards of Chinese workers to the CCP – not the working class that produces the wealth in society.
“And, no, opposition to this regime is not in the least “racist””
Yeah, it is. In your view the 96 per cent of the population who support their government are ignorant children, too stupid to know what is in their best interests. You, on the other hand, with your white savior complex believe you can ride in on your white charger and free the dirty hordes from their infantile false consciousness…or something like that, right?
This is so dumb it is difficult to know where to start in deconstructing this garbage. Firstly, as stated before, the figure of 96 percent means virtually nothing in what is a de facto one-party state. Secondly, once again what is in the slightest “racist” about opposing the Chinese state capitalist regime. You don’t even attempt to explain. It goes to show just how dishonest and devious you are. I fully support the Chinese workers in their class struggles against their Chinese capitalist bosses. Does that make me a racist too? You are a fool someone clearly doesn’t know how to argue their way out of a paper bag. And thirdly while I disagree with the pro-capitalist political views of most Chinese workers just as I disagree with the pro-capitalist views of most workers in the West, in no way does that mean that I think these workers are stupid. Stupidity has to do with the mental capacity of workers to think for themselves and change their ideas. Workers are not stupid. It’s just that most of them currently hold views that are actually antithetical to their interests. It is their interests that I fully support, not the views they currently endorse such as nationalism which actually work against their interests. Big difference. And unlike you with your anti-Marxist ideas about revolution, I emphatically do not exhibit a savior complex of any kind. The emancipation of the working class must be carried out by the working class itself, not some Leninist vangaurd
“Unlike you, I am not selective in the capitalist regimes I oppose”
(Yawn.) China’s is a mixed economy with a communist party run government. They are working towards full communism by 2121. Meanwhile your party will remain a steadfast bastion of irrelevancy. Bravo!Yawn indeed. China is a 100% capitalist economy based on a mixture of corporate and state capitalist control and ownership of this economy. It is based on a system of generalised wage labour, therefore it is fully capitalist from a Marxian standpoint. There is zero possibility of the regime, which profits handsomely from this arrangement and bends over backward to accommodate the billionaire class in its ranks, ever working towards full communism. You are a fool if you think otherwise. In fact you are so deluded and divorced from the real world it is difficult to imagine things getting even worse. The first step on the road to achieving full communism will be to democratically overthrow this obnoxious anti-working-class regime in China you so cravenly admire but which represents an, as yet formidable, obstacle on the road to communism
More drivel from our rabid nationalist TruesScotsman
There are multiple political parties in China and they play an important role in the governing of the country. But you, a deluded, ignorant racist knows nothing of such things. Below is an excellent link on the issue, but I don’t think you’ve the mental capacity to read it. Shame, you’d actually learn something.
China IS in effect a one-party authoritarian state. True, there are on paper 8 other small political parties but these are effectively under the rigorous control of the CP that selects their leadership and allows them to exist only on condition that they accept the complete hegemony of the pseudo communist party. They are fronts for the purpose of window dressing the regime as something less dictatorial than it is actually is. Not infrequently there is dual membership of both the minor party and the CP. No genuine opposition to the regime is legally permitted and is systemically weeded out of the minor parties by the regime itself, thereby ensuring the compliance of these parties to the regime
This article explains the historical background to the existence of these minor parties
Contrary to what you claim these minor parties play no important role in the government of the country. They are more consultative bodies if anything. I note you have nothing to say about the active suppression of Marxists by the Chinese authorities
Stop with your craven apologizing for this thoroughly obnoxious anti-democratic and anti-working class regime that is the Chinese state capitalist regime. And, no, opposition to this regime is not in the least “racist” – where did you get this stupid idea from? Unlike you, I am not selective in the capitalist regimes I oppose – whether they be China, the US, the UK or North Korea
Here we go again More deluded rubbish from our rabid nationalist, TrueScotsman
China is not a dictatorship, it’s one of the most democratic countries on the planet with 96 per cent approval of its government. But you, think you’ve the right to tell 1.4 billion people how to live. They all think you kind annoying gnats, as do I.
He admits that China is a capitalist country – what else could it be if the mode of production is based on generalised wage labour, the acid test for the existence of capitalism? But if the MOP is capitalist, then the nature of the state must be capitalist too. This is basic historical materialism.
Despite its ridiculous pretensions to being “communist” or “Marxist”, the CPC is a fully capitalist entity. It administers the wage system and is, therefore, a capitalist entity. But there is only one way you can administer capitalism – in the interest of capital and, hence, against the interest of wage labour. That is to say against the interests of the vast majority.
This gives the lie to TS’s preposterous claim that “China is not a dictatorship, it’s one of the most democratic countries on the planet with 96 per cent approval of its government“. It does not seem to have occured to him that China is a one-party authoritarian dictatorship so the figure if 96% is pretty much meaningless.
Besides, as with every other country in the world, China is a capitalist state, all important decisions being made on an essentially top-down basis. Chinese workers have little or no say in the running of the country. The Chinese capitalist state is currently trying to further consolidate this authoritarian chain of command and the COVID pandemic has given it a perfect excuse to do just that
TS is living in a bubble divorced from reality if he seriously imagines there is anything democratic about the Chinese state capitalist dictatorship. At the very least, if it was “democratic” you would expect it to abandon the model of a one-party state and permit political opposition to function, openly and legally. He fits the description of a “useful idiot” to the regime, gullibly trotting out the oh-so-predictable line that any opposition to this billionaire-friendly capitalist regime must be instigated by the CIA or some other such nefarious entity. This is the typical response of capitalist regimes under pressure from within: blame the foreigner.
If TS knew anything about China, he would understand that the Chinese authorities have been cracking down on and repressing Marxists. Our own comrades in China face repression and have to be very wary about putting across Marxist ideas in this repressive state that does not tolerate any genuine freedom of the press. I guess TS, with his fertile imagination, considers these Marxists to be “CIA funded”.
Here is another link on the subject
https://thediplomat.com/2018/10/no-place-for-real-marxists-in-communist-china/
TrueScotsman
In response to your various points
Admittedly at first I did not but now I do. Your position is that every socialist on earth is evil but for your tiny bunch of naval gazers.
What a load of self-indulgent tosh. We just don’t use terms like “evil” for starters and the SPGB approach is far more nuanced than your ignorant petulant rhetoric allows for. For instance, we do acknowledge that other groups like Left communists have much the same goal as us even if we differ over how to reach that goal
On the contrary, China is one of the most democratic countries on the planet. It is a mixed economy but has a communist government. The capitalists do not run the country. Your description of China is faulty.
Absolute BS. China is very clearly a one-party capitalist dictatorship. Like every other capitalist regime, the workers have little or no say in the running of society. Decision-making follows the usual top-down authoritarian capitalist model. Despite the government calling itself “communist”, the system it presides over is capitalism. This is because the mode of production there is based on generalised wage labour. As Marx said capitalism IS the wages system. The nature of the government is determined by the nature of the mode of production it presides over. If it is capitalism it presides over then what you have is a capitalist government. That’s basic historical materialism
There is only one way in which you can operate capitalism and that is in the interest of capital and therefore against wage labour. As a naive leftist and nationalist to boot you fail to see this. It shows how little you understand what socialism is about. The capitalists don’t need to directly run the economy themselves, they can leave that to the politicians. The point is in whose interests must capitalism be operated????
Wages are still acceptable in a socialist economy.
No, they are absolutely not acceptable! In fact, the very existence of wage labour implies the alienation of workers from the means of production and thus also implies the non-existence of the classless society of socialism. Why do you think Marx called on workers to “inscribe on their banner the revolutionary watchword, ‘Abolition of the wages system!”
China has never claimed to be a communist country. It has a mixed economy but is ruled by a communist party. They will be communist by 2121.
LOL Like the pseudo communist party claimed under Khrushchev it would be communist in a matter of a few decades, eh? You are so gullible you will swallow any nonsense the central committee will dish out. The red capitalist class and their henchmen are doing very nicely out of the wages system/capitalism, thank you very much. There is not a snowflake’s chance in hell they will write their own suicide note and set about organising their own self-immolation. No ruling class in history has ever done so
The USSR did not collapse it was betrayed. A referendum was held. A huge majority voted to retain the USSR. The referendum was ignored and the Union dissolved
Non sequitur. The question is WHO betrayed the USSR? That’s right – elements of the ruling class in their so called “revolution from above”. It is the same ruling class in the case of China towards whom you display such a touching childlike faith
“The CCP are committed Marxists, that’s exactly what they’re going to do.
LOL LOL LOL https://international.thenewslens.com/article/111336 and https://www.npr.org/2018/11/21/669509554/in-china-the-communist-partys-latest-unlikely-target-young-marxists?t=1632068471416
I mistake nothing. I condemn imperialism because of the human misery that results. It’s basic human decency.
But as an idealist and non-marxist who likes to think of the world in terms of good and evil, you fail to see that imperialism does not materialise out of thin air. It has economic roots and these can be traced to the accumulative/competitive dynamic within capitalism itself. Capitalism is global in case you were not aware and so by extension is the capacity for imperialism
“China with its Belt and Road initiative etc is a major imperialist power”
No, it is not.
LOL. I suppose you are gullible enough to believe that Chinese capitalist investment in foreign countries is based on a charitable concern for their wellbeing and has absolutely nothing to do with securing a healthy profit, future markets and material resources
Erm, no I don’t. You don’t know the first thing about China. I’d say it’s partly racist chauvinism and partly reactionary sectarianism. Whatever the case, it adds up to 100% misunderstanding.
That’s a particularly stupid comment. How on earth is it racist chauvinism and reactionary sectarianism to criticise Chinese capitalist imperialism? I am EQUALLY critical of American capitalist imperialism or British capitalist imperialism. Unlike you, I am not selective in my opposition to imperialism.
TrueScotsman
Perhaps you might care to address my point in 222270:
Why are you so intent upon completely misrepresenting the position of the SPGB?
The SPGB is no less critical of “western imperialism” and the capitalist imperative that drives that than it is of “Chinese imperialism” and the self-same capitalist imperative that drives this.
I find it absolutely ludicrous that you should even suggest the idea that the SPGB is, somehow, some sort of stooge of “western imperialism”. It is deeply insulting and shows how little you know about the SPGB which has a proud record of principled opposition to every capitalist war – and all sides involved in these wars – since its inception in 1904. We are fiercely anti-nationalist and anti-patriotic, notwithstanding your feeble attempt to differentiate between these terms. Identifying with the nation-state – any nation-state – is class collaborationism
For heaven’s sake – do a bit of basic research on the SPGB instead of yielding to the temptation to resort to inane and utterly misinformed insult
