robbo203
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“My, you are a bore. No one is arguing that parts of the Russian economy are not capitalist. With the betrayal of the USSR the capitalists had a field day. But since then they’ve been put in their place. The oligarchs no longer exercise singular control over the ship of state. Imperialism is not the Russian state’s reason for being.”
__________________________________________________Just as the old nomenklatura of the Soviet Union represented the Red bourgeoisie or state capitalist class so Putin today represents the modern capitalist or oligarch class in Russia. Putin himself is an oligarch and an extremely wealthy individual. It’s not the case that “oligarchs no longer exercise singular control over the ship of state”, Rather it is a case of some oligarchs closely allied with Putin have gained power at the expense of others
Talking of Gazprom I came across this:
“The market value of Gazprom, which is listed on the London Stock Exchange, peaked at $369 billion in May 2008. Now that investors have figured out that Gazprom is working for its contractors and asset-strippers rather than its shareholders, the company currently trades at $60 billion. That means Gazprom insiders have reduced its value by some $310 billion, which must qualify as either a case of epic bad management or one of the biggest heists of all time. Chief executive Alexei Miller, a former assistant to Putin, has held the job since May 2001, indicating that Putin is satisfied with his performance.
The next most notable claim about Putin’s wealth came from Sergei Kolesnikov, a junior partner of oligarch Nikolai Shamalov. Kolesnikov fled Russia because he feared for his life. He offered a long and detailed interview to the prominent Russian journalist Yevgeniya Albats in 2012. Kolesnikov, who was involved in this project, revealed that Putin was building a grand palace near the Black Sea resort of Sochi with state funds. Kolesnikov suggested that typically half of any crony business went to Putin and half to his chief partner, while junior partners received a few percent.
The irony is that Putin has undermined all property rights in Russia. Therefore, Putin and his cronies need to transfer their wealth to offshore havens. Otherwise, if they lose power in Russia, they will be instantly expropriated.
The Panama Papers, which Putin condemned in the starkest terms, offered further insights. According to the documents, one of Putin’s childhood friends, the cellist Sergei Roldugin, turned out to be a multi-billionaire, seemingly without knowing it. The biggest gift identified in the Panama Papers was $259 million that Roldugin received from the private Russian businessman Suleiman Kerimov, who was sanctioned by the U.S. Treasury Department in April 2018.
If the allegations are true, the picture is clear: Putin and his closest friends are looting the state and its assets, primarily Gazprom, on an extraordinary scale. My guesstimate is that Putin’s cronies have moved $15 billion to $25 billion a year out of the country since 2006. Over 13 years that would total $195 billion to $325 billion. Half of that amount would belong to Putin.
And it shows. The booklet “The Life of a Galley Slave,” authored in 2012 by Nemtsov and the activist Leonid Martynyuk, concluded that Putin had at his disposal 20 palaces, four yachts, 58 aircraft and a collection of watches worth about $700,000. Like so many other critics of the regime, Martynyuk has been forced to flee Russia.
But why does Putin need all this money? Because money is power in Russia. Only the richest can rule, so Putin needs to be the richest.
In all probability, Putin holds most of his wealth in Western countries with rule of law and deep financial markets and that allow anonymously owned companies. Yet this also makes him vulnerable. If the United States prohibited anonymous ownership and started demanding information about all ultimate beneficiary owners, it could make life very difficult for the Russian president.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/06/05/vladimir-putin-is-russias-biggest-oligarch/
I note that TS has wriggled out of answering a previous point I made in response to his attempt to justify the existence of profits in Russia. Of course, you cannot operate capitalism without an economic surplus or profits (signifying the exploitation of the working class) but, stupidly, TS criticized me for imagining that that is precisely what I suggested – that you could. The irony is that the video he posted in support of the actions of the Russian capitalist state actually featured some commentator asserting that entities like Gazprom don’t sell their stuff “in order to make a profit”.
Once again, TS emerges with egg all over his face having shot himself in the foot, to mix a few metaphors. It is the person in the video he should be criticizing, not me, for suggesting you could operate capitalism without the need to secure a profit
“Meaning a majority of the profits go towards the state to be spent on the Russian people”
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LOL. this plonker imagines the capitalist state operates in the interest of the population at large and then has the audacity to count himself amongst the “actually existing socialists”.How difficult is it to explain to him that state ownership is NOT common ownership and that it is simply a form of class ownership? In the old soviet union, this was pretty clear for all to see. A small class -the nomenklatura – by virtue of its stranglehold on the state ownership owned and controlled the means of production. Ultimate control means the same thing as de facto control. The Soviet Union was an extremely unequal society with a GINI coefficient comparable to many western capitalist countries. State capitalism (and modern Russia is not even that by TSs own admission but rather a ´”mixed economy” like most other capitalist states) is no more geared to serve the interests of workers than private capitalism. private capitalism likewise has its obscurantist mythology e.g. the concept of the “stakeholder society”
!Lol. Anti-fascist is actually fascist. Anti-imperialist is actually imperialist. No doubt boy means girl and up means down. So very post-modernist of you all. Words don’t have meaning here. Purple not very tree symptom.”
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Our pro-Putin snowflake continues not to see the point. Calling oneself an “anti-fascist” or an “anti-imperialist” does not make one so. There are self-declared fascists fighting for both Russia and Ukraine (and some of TS´s abhorrent comments are clearly fascistic in nature). Putin´s claim that he is waging this war to denazify Ukraine is about as credible as Zelensky´s claim that his obnoxious repressive regime is standing up for “freedom” and “democracy”. They are both remarkably similar in practice and outlook, its just the labels that are different
“This is what an ideological snowflake looks like. Yes, Gazprom makes a profit but the shareholders are the Russian people not a select group of capitalist investors. The idea that there can be no surplus to reinvest into an enterprise or to redistribute among the population is so asinine it beggars belief.”
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True Nazi (our resident pro-Putin troll who thinks it is perfectly OK to turn little kids, amongst others, into “fertiliser” to advance the cause of Russian capitalism) now presumes to lecture us on economics. Talk about beggaring belief – it should be pointed out to this simpleton that nobody here has suggested there “can be no surplus to reinvest into an enterprise” etc. We live in a capitalist economy, after all, and Russian capitalist enterprises of course have to make a surplus to reinvest and survive in a global capitalist market.
However, I would point out to TN that it is not me that is saying that GAZPROM does not sell its commodities in order to make a profit but the person in the video he approvingly posted. (see post 239) That person clearly stated that entities like Gazprom don’t sell their stuff “in order to make a profit”. It’s hilarious. True Nazi is so muddled and confused he fails to see that it is that person he should be attacking, not me
The other point our snowflake makes is about the Russian people allegedly being the “shareholders” of Gazprom. Really? In what way are the “Russian people” shareholders of GAZPROM? Do tell us TN.
Meanwhile back in the real world, GAZPROM´S actual shareholders had other things on their mind:
“MOSCOW, Sept 30 (Reuters) – Gazprom (GAZP.MM) shareholders backed Russia’s biggest ever dividend payout totalling 1.208 trillion roubles ($21 billion) at an extraordinary general meeting (EGM) of the state-controlled gas giant on Friday.
Shareholders backed an interim dividend of 51.03 roubles ($0.8921) per share, the gas producer said in a regulatory disclosure. Gazprom shareholders in June unexpectedly decided not to pay dividends on last year’s results, doing so for the first time since 1998.Dividends offer retail investors a way to profit at a time when Western sanctions have hit the value of Russian companies. VTB Moi Investitsii brokerage said retail investors may cash in some 144 billion roubles from the dividend.
“We expect the second-half 2022 dividend may reach some 10.3 roubles (per share) with dividend yield of 4.7% due to exports decline,” it said.”TN seems to think that state-owned industries are somehow owned by the “people”. Proof if proof were needed as to just how clueless this individual is about either capitalism or socialism. I will leave him with one final quote from Engels which should put the record straight
“The modern state, no matter what its form, is essentially a capitalist machine — the state of the capitalists, the ideal personification of the total national capital. The more it proceeds to the taking over of productive forces, the more does it actually become the national capitalist, the more citizens does it exploit. The workers remain wage-workers — proletarians. The capitalist relation is not done away with. It is, rather, brought to a head.”
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/soc-utop/ch03.htm
“Despite the assertions of the self-hating faux socialists populating this site, Russia is not imperialist.”
_______________________________________________-How rich – that a pro-capitalist supporter of an obnoxious capitalist regime like Russia should describe us as “self-hating faux socialists” when we have taken the only possible position that any genuine socialist could take in this squalid capitalist war – complete opposition to both the capitalist regimes of Ukraine and Russia. Not a drop of working-class blood is worth shedding in the disreputable cause of either side.
TS posts a video from some crank extolling Lenin`s utterly discredited theory of imperialism. (If anyone qualifies as a “faux socialist” it is the bourgeois revolutionary, Lenin). We don’t have to accept Lenin´s dogmatic definition of imperialism in order to see why Russia, like its western counterparts and China too, are all capitalist imperialist powers. Imperialism is rooted in the expansionist dynamic of capitalism itself. Every country in the world is capitalist and consequently, every country in the world is latently or manifestly imperialist. It’s just that some countries are more successful than others when it comes to being imperialist. Clearly Russia, for example, is not as successful as America for example when it comes to being an imperialist power
The video is littered with egregious errors. It claims for example that Russia relies on its own natural resources like energy and state-owned energy companies like Gasprom are not in business to make a profit. To which the only response one can give is LOL, LOL, LOL
According to this site:
“Russia’s Gazprom more than doubled net profit in the first half of 2022, the company said Tuesday.
Gazprom reported $41.75 billion, or 2.5 trillion rubles, in profits, up from about 968 billion rubles in the first half of 2021.”Knowing TS’s shaky grasp of economics I imagine he thinks Gasprom is some sort of charity that has the well-being of its customers in mind, rather than a ruthless capitalist enterprise intent upon maximizing its profits in a highly competitive global capitalist environment
“Could it be that a fascist thinker could conflate anti-fascism with fascism!”
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LB, it´s difficult to know in the case of our resident Putin bootlicker. He claims to be an antifascist but some of the sentiments he expresses have a fascist ring to them. In theory, I guess it is possible for an avowed “anti-fascist” to be a fascist in practice in everything but name…
“The difficulty Bojo’s half-baked Brains has is understanding nuance. He is such a pure-driven snowflake that any departure from his infantile utopian vision of socialism equals fascism.”
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Why am I not surprised at TS´s latest feeble attempt to ridicule socialism and thereby confirm his proud allegiance to capitalism? It is equally amusing that he thinks socialists think anyone who is not a socialist is a fascist. That’s complete baloney of course – there are plenty of non-fascist opponents of socialism – but it is not us but TS who is indiscriminately applying the term fascism to include, for example, the entire population of Ukraine. I guess he imagines that the kids whose maimed bodies lie under the rubble of buildings collapsed by Russian missiles are hardened stalwarts of the Hitlerite Youth Brigade who deserved to be “turned into fertiliser”. This guy is some seriously fucked up human being
“That is precisely the kind of statement you might expect a fascist to say”
Lol. Because being anti-fascist is actually fascist. Just like being vegetarian is actually carnivorous. Erm, WTF?!
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Logic evidently is not your forte. If I said all black swans are birds does that mean that all birds are black swans? It is possible to be a non-fascist while uttering fascist-like sentiments
As a bootlicker of the capitalist warlord Putin, it is not entirely clear whether or not your worldview is a fascist one in all but name. It is not unknown for self-declared fascists to support the Russian side of the conflict just it is not unknown for there to be self-declared fascists supporting the Ukrainian side (like some in the infamous Azov battalion) – though I suspect in both cases we are talking about a relatively small minority. I note that you have studiously evaded answering the question concerning what proportion of the Ukrainian population you consider to be fascists. Many Ukrainians apparently regard Russia to be a modern reincarnation of Nazi Germany but I suspect that is no more credible than your claim that Ukraine is a Nazi state.
What is credible is that both regimes are corrupt far-right repressive capitalist oligarchies and while you have opted to support one of these as a gullible dupe of Russian capitalist propaganda, you could just as easily be supporting the other. I have encountered your type supporting the Ukrainian side coming out with the same hysterical nationalist BS as you do
“Fascism is the enemy. The brains demented by it sometimes need putting down.”
That is precisely the kind of statement you might expect a fascist to say
!Watching/reading MSM about Ukraine actually makes you stupid. Ukraine is losing this conflict and badly.
https://bigserge.substack.com/p/russo-ukrainian-war-the-world-blood?utm_medium=reader2″
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Doesn’t this just make you sick – these self-appointed and oh-so-smug armchair war strategists pompously predicting the outcome of the war from the comfort zone of their bedroom/basement/garage? It reminds one of some maladjusted teenager addicted to computer war games. Will the evil emperor Zol and his hordes of orcs prevail over the sexy swordfighter, Lana, who has the ability to do cartwheels in the air before slicing some ugly orc in half? Such people seriously need to get a life.
This is all a complete distraction from what is the real issue. This war, irrespective of which capitalist warlord is going to “win” it, is a fucking disaster for the working class across the world. It has got us where the capitalists want us – picking sides and seeing other workers as the enemy
“BS. Without an army one is defenceless. No point even discussing revolution unless one is prepared to defend it from counter-revolutionary violence. Violence which is guaranteed.”
======================Revolution is one thing, supporting the capitalist aims of a capitalist regime like Putin´s or Zelensky’s is quite another. While there is no guarantee that a democratic socialist revolution undertaken by an anti-nationalist and united world working class will not encounter some violent resistance (even if, most likely, minimal), the much-preferred stance of socialists is for a completely peaceful and democratic social transformation or revolution. There are many precedents of “people´s power” overthrowing a regime with minimal or no bloodshed.
And, yes, mercenaries and soldiers are workers. So what? By acting as soldiers and mercenaries on behalf of a capitalist warlord like Putin or Zelensky, they are acting against their class interests. Socialists are quite right to criticise them for doing this. The more Russian and Ukrainian soldiers abandon the field of military conflict the better frankly
“Despite all this, leftwing union leaders like Lynch and Graham will still be calling, even if lukewarmly, for workers to vote for the Labour Party in the coming general election. They must know that they will live to regret this as, sooner or later, they will come into conflict with a Labour government over their members’ pay.”
___________________________Perhaps now might be the time for the Socialist Party to devote more attention to the (equally) grim prospect of the so-called Labour Party forming the next capitalist government. No more so-called “lesser-evilest” arguments for (reluctantly) voting Labour! This so-called lesser-evilest approach is part of the problem. It is what ensures or paves the way for the greater evil coming to prevail eventually. Except that I do not now believe there is any basis for even distinguishing between Labour and the Tories as lesser or greater evils. They are effectively the same thing
It would be good also to produce some material – maybe a leaflet for mass distribution perhaps – particularly directed at trade unions, calling on them to completely disaffiliate from the Labour Party. That should provoke some useful responses
“TS likes to use the term Zionazis”
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There are Nazis in Ukraine in the sense of self identifying supporters of Nazi ideology. But I still want to know from people like TS here what proportion of the population or even the military, count as Nazis. And what about Russia? You could just as easily argue it too has its Nazi supporters. They are Nazis in all but name. The Wagner group springs to mind. Some of Medvedev´s recent comments sound pretty Nazi like to me.
I come across the expression so often from supporters of the Russian capitalist regime that Russia is waging a holy war against the “Ukranazi state”. At the very least it is diversionary BS given that there is precious little to differentiate the corrupt repressive Putin regime from the corrupt repressive Zelensky regime. Why then would the former seek to invade the latter if it seriously took exception to the character and ideological outlook of the latter
Name-calling is all too often substitute for, and an excuse not to engage in, serious analysis. The pretext for war is very rarely the same thing as the reason for war. Zelensky is no different from Putin in his crazed desire to take territory for his beloved Ukraine as his recent rantings at the Davos summit reveal. To hell with the lot of them. They make me sick.
TS: “More than any flake on this website that’s for sure.”
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At least no one here on this website apologises for a disgusting capitalist regime like Putin´s (or Zelensky´s, for that matter) – apart from you, that is. That is the real issue at hand, not who is “winning” this war (and we cannot trust the propaganda coming from either side when it comes to that deciding on that). Whoever “wins” it will certainly not be either Russian or Ukrainian workers
The fact that members of the working class on both sides of this conflict, are dying for the utterly stupid disgusting capitalist cause of nationalism seems to be of zero concern to you. That speaks volumes.
