robbo203
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“Notice All-in hasn’t denied his friendship with the CIA? Come on All-in, fess up. Don’t keep Bojo’s half brain waiting.”
_____________________Come on TS, fess up and provide us with a precise link where Alan suggested such a thing. Knowing what a dolt you are you probably mistook a tongue-in-cheek joke for an actual sentiment
lol. TS You get dumber and dumber with every post. I literally told you that your use of the expression Waffen SS was obviously code for your claim that what Russia was fighting against was a Nazi regime. But you still didn’t get it. And no I did NOT “mean to tell me the Nazis didn’t lose in 1945”, you silly sausage. Gawd you are so slow on the uptake. I’m talking about the ideology of Nazism that the Waffen SS embodied. Do you know what I mean by ideology?
Oh well never mind – there is nothing one can do if you are so determined to remain stupid
And yes I know there are one or two overtly fascist battalions fighting for the Ukrainian regime. There may not be any overtly fascist battalions on the Russian side but, I suggest, you don’t need to call yourself a fascist in order to be one. The Wagner group, for example, certainly exhibits some of the hallmarks of a fascist group. Besides, there are self-declared fascists fighting on the Russian side as well.
But this still doesn’t answer my main point – what is it about Russia that makes it “not fascist” but that Ukraine has that makes it “fascist”? Saying that the latter venerates some ultra-nationalist who was also a fascist is not a good enough answer, I am afraid (Putin and other high-ranking figures in the Russian government, also venerate a fascist in the form of Putin`s ideological mentor, Iván Aleksándrovich Ilyín. Nor is the fact that the Ukrainian regime muzzles its opponents a good enough answer. So does Russia and this is undeniable. See for example this
Both the Russian and Ukrainian regimes as I’ve said countless times are authoritarian right-wing oligarchies remarkably similar in character. If one is “fascist” then so must be the other…
Lastly, you say I “hate all socialists and socialist governments and you have no respect for the truth.” Gawd, you are truly thick. Do you know what Marxian socialism stands for? Are people who advocate this not socialist? Do I hate my comrades in the SPGB for advocating this?
Of course, I am fully aware there are organizations – and countries – that claim to be “socialist”. I don’t “hate” them but I do oppose them because what they are actually supporting is a form of capitalism, not Marxian socialism.
The funny thing about all this is that Russia does not even claim to be socialist yet you support it. You identify fully with the cause of Russian capitalism and you are an unapologetic nationalist and craven supporter of this capitalist regime. What more needs to be said on the matter?
“Serious question. Which side are you talking about? The Russian military or the Ukrainian military? It could be either by your logic.”
I don’t know how much clearer to say it. T-H-E W-A-F-F-E-N S-S. Clear enough now?”
_____________________LOL it seems you wouldn’t know how to argue your way out of a paper bag, let alone cope with a serious debate with seasoned socialists. Let´s run through this argument once again, kid, so your simple mind might just be able to wrap itself around the rudiments…
You don’t obviously literally think the Waffen SS is involved in the Ukrainian conflict – or perhaps you do seeing as you’re such a “dopey twit”, you’ve might have got the wars and the dates mixed up. But I will give you the benefit of the doubt on this occasion and assume that you are only using the expression, “Waffen SS”, as code for “Nazi”. In your little mind, the Ukraine conflict is all about the wonderful humanitarian Russian military doing its “duty” and facing up to the evil fascist regime of Zelinsky and its degenerate Western backers.
So I ask you once again for the umpteenth time- you’ve constantly evaded this question, haven´t you? – what is the difference between the Zelinsky regime and the Putin regime that would allow you to say the former is a fascist regime and the latter is not? Both regimes are remarkably similar in their political character. Yes yes yes I know the Ukrainian armed forces have self-identifying fascists (Banderites) fighting for it. But so has the Russian side (and as I have pointed out, Putin himself is an admirer of the Russian fascist ideologue, Iván Aleksándrovich Ilyín).
But having some fascists supporting your side does not necessarily make your regime a fascist one, does it? You could much more plausibly argue that the repellent authoritarian regime of Zelensky (a Jew, BTW) is simply making use of the relatively small number of overt fascists in the ranks of its military. After all, fascists are ultra-zealous nationalists and the regime has an interest in promoting the putrid ideology of nationalism -as do you
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“You ain’t a socialist and don’t speak for socialists. How did socialists stop the SS? They defeated them on the battlefield.”
………………How am I not a socialist? I advocate for, and fully endorse, Marxian socialism: the common ownership and democratic control of the means of wealth production. You don´t. You are a craven supporter of Russian capitalism. Your problem is you haven’t got a clue what socialism is. I imagine you think the Nazis were socialist cuz they called themselves the “National Socialist German Workers’ Party”…
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“Erm and the Holocaust ended. Real world consequences resulted from that defeat you dopey twit.
————–LOL, this from the dopey twit who characterizes the present war as a fight against the “Waffen SS” yet tells us that “Waffen SS” was defeated in 1945. You are endlessly amusing in your rank stupidity, TS
More on the relationship between Putin and his fascist mentor, Iván Aleksándrovich Ilyín…..
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/10/26/how-fascist-are-putins-views
“Actually, no. That’s not what they’re “both” doing. The Russians are engaged in warfare against the army of a fascist regime. The army of a fascist regime, unfortunately including the unlucky conscripts, is not “innocent”. It is the instrument of fascist violence and oppression. Resisting such a force is one’s duty. Unless, of course, you’re physically unable or a coward.”
___________________________________If Ukraine is a fascist regime then so too is Russia. There is little to choose between them. They are both repellent, right-wing authoritarian oligarchies.
There are, of course, fascists involved in the Ukraine war but they can be found on both sides of the conflict. Indeed there is a strong case for saying that Putin himself (and certainly that nutjob Medvedev, his sidekick) is a fascist or a fascist sympathiser, soft on fascism. Putin´s ideological mentor is Iván Aleksándrovich Ilyín – a promoter of “Russian Christian fascism”. See this fascinating youtube video
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“Putin is not a “capitalist warlord”. He is the president of the Russian Federation.”
—————————————He is both. He is a capitalist parasite and represents the interest of the Russian capitalist parasite class. Here´s a random link about his (mostly hidden) wealth
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“In the name of nationalism the deluded worker killed the madman threatening the infant with an axe. Erm, no. Stopping he madman with the axe is always the right thing to do.”
—————————-Your analogy is laughable and asinine. A more accurate description would be two axe-wielding mad men trying to kill each other, each caring nothing about the fate of the random infant who happens to have gotten in the way
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“How? They have artillery, missiles, tanks aircraft and machine guns. They’re the Waffen SS. They’re on a tear. How you gonna stop them? “Urging”? Tell me, how you gonna urge the Waffen SS to stop? Serious question.”
—————————————-Serious question. Which side are you talking about? The Russian military or the Ukrainian military? It could be either by your logic.
I don’t pretend there is much that can be done under the present circumstances given the extent to which workers on both sides have succumbed to the putrid and disgusting ideology of nationalism. Socialists are few in number. We have little influence. But the socialist approach of refusing to fight in capitalism´s wars is still the ONLY approach that makes any sense. “Armed struggle” is just a recipe for tens or even hundreds of thousands of our fellow workers getting killed. Is that what you call a “solution”? Also, armed struggle is no way to eliminate fascism. If anything it breeds a fascist mentality in all but name
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“Actually, they do solve problems. Defeating the Waffen SS in battle is the only way you can actually stop their rampage. The application of violence does solve problems. ”
…………BS. The Waffen SS may have been defeated in battle but has the ideology it espoused disappeared? No, it has not. Right-wing ultra-nationalism is alive and well. Oddly enough you claim Ukraine is a fascist regime. How could that possibly have come about if fascism was defeated in the second world war?
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““There are indications that significant numbers of Russian soldiers are questioning the very purpose of their mission in Ukraine.”Rubbish. Provide a link. Nothing sourced to Ukraine or western MSM is acceptable.”
……………………https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-war-the-wives-left-behind-by-russian-deserters/a-63568056
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-searching-soldiers-abandoning-war-en-masse-ukraine-1769993
“What is one to do when “workers” go rampaging about slaughtering the innocent.”
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The thing is this is EXACTLY what BOTH sides in this sordid capitalist war are doing and yet you are asking us to support the imperialist Russian side against Ukraine and its imperialist backers. Socialists don’t support capitalist warlords like Putin or Zelensky. War itself brutalises people and turns them into fascists. In the name of a putrid nationalism, deluded workers give their lives to the cause of their respective capitalist ruling classes
What is one to do? The only thing any decent human being would want to do. Stop the war and urge the combatants on both sides – fellow members of the working class – to lay down their arms. There are indications that significant numbers of Russian soldiers are questioning the very purpose of their mission in Ukraine. Good. The same needs to be happening on the Ukraine side. The utter stupidity of fighting for the right to plant a particular flag on a particular patch of land needs to be made crystal clear.
Socialists can’t do much against the overwhelming forces of national chauvinism and reactionary capitalism but at least what we are doing makes sense. Your recipe, on the other hand, will ensure that a legacy of hatred towards fellow workers who happen to live under another capitalist regime to yours will endure for generations. Wars don’t solve problems. They create them
“Isn’t it strange that our message is received by the American right-wing (recall the Fox TV repetition of one of our tweets) but not by the American Left who persist in ignoring ourselves?”
—————–I guess it must be discomforting for them to come across a socialist organisation fiercely critical of the usual mantras of left-wing capitalism. They are just not accustomed to the experience and it clearly flummoxes them. So they fall back on the standard feeble argument that socialism has been tried as in Venezuela etc and has failed.
My response is to say if that is socialism then I am opposed to socialism but it has nothing to do with what was classically meant by socialism. You will note that the more knowledgeable of them will tend to cite evidence such as the ten reformist planks in the Communist Manifesto to support their claim that what exists in Venezuela etc is “socialism”. They forget that Marx and Engels were talking about a (still) capitalist society in which these reforms were intended to be implemented. They also forget that M & E later more or less disowned what they had written in the Manifesto in 1848 (see the German preface for example) because circumstances had changed by then – the 1870s onwards
And the Waffen SS were just “fellow workers”? Clown.
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“Clown” yourself. They are sadly deluded fellow workers just like you. And you share the same ideology as them. You’re a warmongering fascist. Using fascist methods of dealing with opponents like “turning them into fertilizer”, for example, only reproduces and reinforces a fascist outlook. Pretty obvious in your case….
TS – “Did you not say “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” when referring to the CIA? We both know you did say that”
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I don’t recall Alan ever suggesting that the CIA was “our friend”. The idea is preposterous. [ABUSE DELETED BY MODERATOR]
It is hilarious that this individual should now be striving to take the moral high ground in suggesting that he does not wish for Ukraine to be turned into a “radioactive hell-hole”. Yet he has no moral scruples whatsoever about wanting to turn fellow workers into “fertilizer” in the cause of promoting Russian capitalism´s interests as opposed to the interests of Ukrainian capitalism.
BD is spot on. These truly are the sentiments of a true nazi. What does it matter that the instrument of mass murder is conventional warfare or nuclear warfare? Mass murder is mass murder and this is what TS clearly endorses with his sick warmongering and putrid nationalism.
“Britain to turn Ukraine into radioactive hell-hole.”
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Unlike the antisocialist warmonger, TS, who endorses the idea of turning fellow workers into “fertiliser”, I obviously oppose the deployment of weapons of any kind on both sides of this conflict. But the above claim does seem to be a hyperbole. Yes, a nuclear bomb would turn Ukraine into a radioactive hell-hole but DU tank-piercing shells??? Sure they are radioactive but how radioactive are they? You can’t really compare them with the impact of a nuclear missile
Here´s a quote:
“The UK confirmed it would provide Kyiv the armour-piercing rounds alongside Challenger 2 tanks – but insisted they have a low risk of radiation.
Depleted uranium “is a standard component and has nothing to do with nuclear weapons”, the MoD said.
“The British Army has used depleted uranium in its armour piercing shells for decades,” the statement added.
“Russia knows this, but is deliberately trying to disinform. Independent research by scientists from groups such as the Royal Society has assessed that any impact to personal health and the environment from the use of depleted uranium munitions is likely to be low.”
Former British Army tank commander – and chemical weapons expert – Col Hamish de Breton-Gordon, said Mr Putin’s comments were “classic disinformation”.
He said depleted uranium rounds used by Challenger 2 tanks contained only trace elements of depleted uranium.
He added it was “laughable” to suggest depleted uranium rounds were in any way linked to nuclear weapons, which uses enriched uranium.
Depleted uranium is what is left over after natural uranium has been enriched, either for weapons-making or for reactor fuel.
It is mildly radioactive in its solid form. But it is a very heavy substance, 1.7 times denser than lead, and it is used to harden rounds so that they can penetrate armour and steel.
When a weapon made with a depleted uranium tip or core strikes a solid object, like the side of a tank, it goes straight through it and then erupts in a burning cloud of vapour.
The vapour settles as dust, which is poisonous and also weakly radioactive.”
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65032671
The article also goes on to say:
“A 2022 UN Environment Programme (UNEP) report said depleted uranium was an environmental concern in Ukraine.
“Depleted uranium and toxic substances in common explosives can cause skin irritation, kidney failure and increase the risks of cancer,” it said.
“The chemical toxicity of depleted uranium is considered a more significant issue than the possible impacts of its radioactivity,” it added.”
Perhaps TS is confusing Toxicity with radioactivity?
More good news on the cost of living front. My energy bill for the month ending 22 March 2023 would have come to a staggering £307.72 had it not been for government handouts which some of you would rather hand back.
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From where did you get this daft idea, Lizzie, that we socialists would rather “hand back” government handouts on principle than accept them? For all your acid comments about the SPGB you don’t seem to know much about us, do you?
Honestly, you sound more like a Tory praising the actions of the Tory government. Do you really think these are going to make much difference to your way of life and standard of living as an exploited proletarian?
Deleted for repeating the original abuse
_______________________________You support the war and the alleged war aims of the Russian capitalist state. It seems hypocritical in the extreme for you to now protest that you don’t like the consequences that this war will bring. Even more so since you have gleefully and triumphantly used such disgusting dehumanizing expressions as turning people into “fertilizer”.
If you don’t like the consequences of war then don’t support war. It’s as simple as that. Socialists vigorously oppose both sides in this obscene conflict between rival capitalist blocs. At least we cannot be accused of hypocrisy and humbug, ridicule us as you might.
This post from True Scotsman was deleted due to contravening Rule 7 of the forum guidelines
Good. About time too. This individual seems to have no conception of how to debate without viciously insulting his opponent. We all use colorful language but TS crosses the line
