robbo203
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It’s not an assumption but an historical fact where De Sade is concerned. Do some research.
…………………….Pay attention. I am talking about the article ZJW referred you to, not the random “sadist” in the street you seem to have in mind. No one on this forum is interested in inflicting pain and humiliation on others….
So the only thing protecting society from Mr More going berserk is a dodgy sciatic nerve. You ought to let Lizzie take a look at that, she is a qualified physio.
::::::::::::::::::::::::What’s this irrelevant nonsense about? Perhaps we should stick to the topic which is about the relative importance of the submersible vis-a-vis refugee boats in media reporting.
No thanks ZJW. I have no interest whatever in anyone who ‘gets off’ in response to extreme pain, suffering or humiliation inflicted non-consensually on others.
_____________________________Why do you make this assumption that anyone is “getting off” on the extreme pain and humiliation of others??? That’s pretty narrow-minded and bigoted, don’t you think? The article ZJW referred you to does no such thing. It is perfectly possible to look at historical figures and recognize both the good or useful things they said and did as well as the bad things. The SPGB for example broadly describes itself as a Marxist political organization but that does not mean that there are not things that Marx wrote with which we strongly disagree.
Your response is a bit like how the tabloid press might respond to the very mention of Marx (only in this case De Sade) – super-charged moralism and completely lacking in nuance
When my father, during his brief association with the Bund Demokratischer Sozialisten (League of Democratic Socialists), told me, among other things, that socialism would be a society without laws, police or prisons, I knew then that it would never become a reality.
________________It depends on what you mean by “law”. There is a tendency to associate “law” with the state and since the state is, in Marxist terms, an instrument of class rule and since socialism is a classless society there can obviously be no law in that sense in a socialist society.
However, there is a long tradition in anthropology going back to people like Malinsowki in the early 20th century referring to “primitive law” in relation to acephalous or stateless societies such as hunter-gatherer bands and some pastoralist societies (like the Nuer in Sudan). The law in this sense was often radically decentralized with often only the immediate parties in a dispute being involved in settling a dispute with the aid of some functionary (in the case of the Nuer, someone called the “leopard skin” man, if I remember correctly)
We could arguably talk about socialism having “law” – or explicitly defined normative rules of behavior. Whether there would be a need for a specialized body called the police, or institutions called “prisons” is another matter. It depends on how strictly you want to define these things.
I recall the late comrade Pieter Lawrence was a strong advocate of the idea that there would indeed be “law” in a socialist society
It looked like the Ukrainian conflict would drag out to some kind of indecisive end with Russia having the edge militarily and the country being more or less partitioned along the lines that it is now. The Ukrainian counter-offensive was not really making that much progress, and sooner or later, the Zelensky regime would have to come to its senses and negotiate. The sooner the war ends the better it would be for everyone. Ukraine is a complete mess and has experienced rapid depopulation. It’s gonna take years to recover.
This Wagner business has kind of complicated things. A destabilized Putin regime might ironically prolong this stupid war and increase the risk of it escalating if the temptation grows to resort to tactical nuclear weapons. Gawd help us all then…
Just shows you how utterly hopeless things are. Socialism is a beautiful dream. That’s all it’ll ever be.
……………………………..Maybe. Maybe not, Ozy. None of us has a crystal ball. You cannot ever rule out small developments occurring that can metamorphize into something much bigger and could serve to put socialism onto the agenda in a way that was simply not predicted or was unpredictable.
But apart from that I keep coming back to this point in the face of all this depressing talk from our depressing Jeremiahs: Look, even if turns out that socialism is an “impossible dream” that is never going to be realized, it does not follow at all that we should give up on the struggle for a sane alternative to capitalism.
We are few in numbers but arguably punch way above our weight. By doing what we are doing we ARE having an impact on the world as it is right now. Not much of an impact, I grant, but an impact nevertheless. We are adding our little bit to the general flux of ideas and altering in a small way the social climate of opinion. For instance, we make the job of the warmongers a little more difficult to accomplish when we oppose the nationalist ideology that lends support to capitalism’s wars. There is a balance of forces out there in the real world and our job is to tilt it in the direction we would want it to go.
I cannot really see any alternative. There is either this or we resign ourselves to some coming apocalypse which, frankly. is not a healthy way to live. Hopelessness translates into a state of perpetual misery. You might just as well slit your wrists and be done with it…
Doubtful – you can’t even get Johnstone’s name right!
Pathetic.
————–Bit below the belt, that. And uncalled for.
Just looking at the quote from the last June´s SS and this in particular:
“If production were fully automated, no surplus value would be produced, so there would be no profits and capitalism would no longer exist.”
It strikes me that a more potent pressure on surplus value than automation and the changing organic composition of capital might be the growth of unproductive labour versus productive labour. I recall that Marxist economist, Fred Moseley, has written something about this but has anyone come across any comparative studies on the relative effect of these two factors?
I agree though that there are always counteracting tendencies to the tendency for the rate of profit to fall. The more it does so the stronger these counter tendencies. As so often happens it’s a case of water finding its own level under capitalism….
The sensible Ukrainian workers, like their Russian counterparts, refusing to fight for their so-called motherland:
“What would you answer if someone called you a coward?” I ask, as gently as I can.
“I have no country,” he says awkwardly. “I just have a family.”
Useful article on the economic background to the capitalist war in UKraine
“The article on inflation by Michael Roberts in the latest Weekly Worker makes no mention of an excess issue of notes and coins as the explanation for inflation. Paul Mattick was of the same opinion. The SPGB account looks like that put forward by Ricardo and JS Mill, both dismissed by Marx.”
………………..
HmmmmmmI quote:
“But in any event none of these could explain a general rise in the prices of all commodities. What could cause such a rise? Only, it will be argued here, some change in the standard of price, some monetary change. A general rise in prices, or inflation in its strict sense, is a purely monetary phenomenon. Marx was amongst those who recognised this.”
“For socialists, disingenuous TINA activism is the stuff of dreams of a pipe smoker.”
____________________________Well said TWC..
The absurdity of TiNA activists like Lizzie45 is that they should even bother to be active in the first place, let alone come on a forum like this to preach their dismal doctrine. If they genuinely believed there was no alternative why bother? Why not just go on a hedonistic binge or, alternatively, cut your wrists and be done with it.
I have never considered socialist activity to be a waste of time even if I will never get to see a socialist society in my lifetime. Just by being a socialist, I am helping to make the world a better place RIGHT NOW. For instance, to the extent that we are able to as individual socialists, we are making it a little bit harder for the capitalist establishment to get away with their dangerous warmongering by opposing their rancid nationalism. Similarly, we are contributing to the effectiveness and militancy of the working class by raising the profile of class consciousness.
What we do right now might not count for much in the grand scheme of things given our small numbers but at least what we are doing is positive and a step in the right direction. Cynicism, by contrast, serves a reactionary agenda
The ‘only game’ will come to an end – along with civilisation, as a result of either nuclear annihilation or a natural/climate catastrophe!
In the meantime keep sucking on your dream pipe, Trev!
___________________________Then you might just as well be a socialist as you’ve got nothing to lose. As individuals, there is only so much we can each do. However infinitesimally small one´s contribution, the world is a better place for having one more socialist and a worse place for having one more supporter of capitalism spouting its rancid ideology of nationalism or bending the knee to royalty. Or whatever.
I can never quite understand the mentality of religious type believers in the inevitability of the Coming Apocalypse such as yourself. If you are so cynical about the prospects of socialism, what precisely are you doing here? It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy you are engaging in and such negativity is not good for your health.
I would far sooner aspire to a better society even if it is unlikely to come in my lifetime
Spot the difference. Well, there isn’t much. Western regimes like the US treat their dissidents in much the same way as the Russian regime does if this report is to be believed…
I came across this from a site called “legitgov”….
3 St. Louis residents indicted on charges of spreading ‘disinformation,’ promoting pro-Russian ‘propaganda,’ and ‘sowing discord’ | 20 April 2023 | A federal grand jury has charged three St. Louis residents with illegally pushing pro-Russian “propaganda” and “misinformation” about Ukraine and sowing discord across Missouri, Georgia and Florida through the African People’s Socialist Party. The indictment alleges that African People’s Socialist Party Chairman Omali Yesh-tela and members Penny Joanne Hess and Jesse Nevel acted as illegal agents of the Russian government without notifying the U.S. attorney general. They each face up to 10 years in prison for that charge. They also face up to five years in prison for conspiring to have U.S. citizens act as illegal agents. The indictment alleges Russian national Aleksandr Viktorovich Ionov founded the Anti-Globalization Movement of Russia, a Moscow-based organization run by the Russian government, to promote pro-Russian “propaganda” and create influence campaigns among political groups across the country, including the African People’s Socialist Party… It says that Ionov would appear on video calls hosted by the party in which he likened support to Ukraine to supporting Nazis [which is EXACTLY the case] and that Yesh-tela made statements supporting Russia.”
For comparison here is what the Russian regime does…
“Then on Monday, opposition politician Vladimir Kara-Murza was jailed for treason and spreading “false information” about Russia’s war in Ukraine. His 25-year sentence was three times longer than any previously imposed for speaking out against the Russian invasion.”
