robbo203
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Fairly obvious I would have thought. Capitalism didn’t require a politically conscious and overwhelming majority to bring it about. Only a relatively small and sufficiently motivated minority prepared to take risks.
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A totally irrelevant argument by the looks of it. According to your arch-conservative dogmatic view of the world, “people generally hate change”. If that were true homo sapiens would still be roaming the African savannah.
You try to get around this obvious nonsense by first asserting that it is “particularly” (or maybe you mean, “only”) change that is “untried and untested” that you have in mind and that can never happen. This begs the obvious question. The kind of change you have in mind that presumably IS possible to make, having been “tried and tested”, must have at one point been untried and untested before it was tried and tested. But how is it ever going to be tried and tested if, according to you, “people generally hate change” and are inherently reluctant to experiment? Explain
Secondly, you assert that “Capitalism didn’t require a politically conscious and overwhelming majority to bring it about”. That is true enough but quite beside the point. We are talking about the motivation to bring about a different society, NOT the method…
What you really want to say, I guess, is that the majority will never want to establish an alternative to capitalism or are incapable of ever wanting to do that. Again this is a mere dogmatic assertion for which you supply no evidence whatsoever. You no more possess a crystal ball than we do.
Apart from that this implies a very naive way of looking at how ideas catch on and spread. Socialist ideas are not propagated in a vacuum but in a social environment that is at the moment very much hostile to them. We cannot say whether such ideas will ever catch on and spread, or how that might happen, but if it does happen it is very likely that the spread of these ideas will take an exponential form as the social climate adapts to accommodate them.
The socialist movement is at the moment tiny and inconsequential but that doesn’t mean it has to be forever and forever and that there is some law in human nature (which evidently bypassed us few human beings who happen to be socialists!) that human beings must always spurn socialism. That´s just ultra-conservative ideological hogwash.
In many ways, if David Graeber’s argument is to be believed people are already halfway there in the way they behave – in their “everyday communism”
Hmm, more than likely they voted to retain the status quo.
People generally hate change, particularly change which is untried and untested.Which is why capitalism remains the only game in town.
…………………….If people hate change how come capitalism exists? Wouldn’t it have been better to have stuck with feudalism? Your qualifying (or cop-out) argument might be that “capitalism! was tried and tested on a small scale before being generally accepted (how? by a show of hands? LOL) could equally apply to a communist or socialist society. See David Graeber´s concept of “everyday communism”
Not a video but a book that I’ve just come across doing an internet search. Have we heard of this guy before?
The more you search the more you come across people on our sort of wavelength -whether in book form, article form, or video form even if the terminology might be sometimes quite different…
It’s a big world out there and there are more and more reasons to be cheerful. We are not as alone as we might think
There is also the “Moneyless Society” FB site which seems quite active. I posted something there a few days ago which got 248 likes and 168 shares – easily my most “successful” FB post. The group currently has 24.1K members
The establishment of your dream world requires the understanding and implementation by a majority. That’s what makes it fundamentally different to all the other societal changes that have ever taken place.
Not. Going. To. Happen.
==============================Lizzie45
This is about as convincing as those who say “socialism is inevitable”. And no less dogmatic.
The truth is we don’t know. It might not but then again it might. But even if socialism is never going to happen, that would not invalidate being a socialist and putting forward the case for socialism, one bit. To the extent that any of us as individuals make a difference to the world that we live in today, I cannot think of anything that would make a better difference than this
A quite comprehensive and readable analysis of the current situation in Ukraine, for those who are interested in the military angle. At any rate, there seems now to be no prospect of the so-called counter-offensive gaining traction. Which begs the question – why continue? Why throw more workers (Ukrainian and Russian) into the meat grinder that is this utterly senseless and destructive capitalist conflict?
The sooner both parties sue for peace the better. Who gives a fig about the colour of the piece of tatty cloth you attach to the flagpole on your local town hall? Only a sociopath would want this madness to continue …
And just in case you think that by “no way” there’s still a remote chance, there isn’t — none, zilch, nada, rien, nichts, niente, not going to happen.
What if you have £300,000,000 to spend instead of £300,000?
Still nothing!
…………………………….That’s just a ridiculous thing to say. In any case, why do you care? You never have anything positive to say about the SPGB anyway.
A quick look on the net and I came up with this option, which would leave us £300,000 to the good, if the valuation for Clpaham High Street is correct, and not taking into account the fact that we might be able to get it a bit cheaper:
https://www.loopnet.co.uk/Listing/399-401-High-St-London/27999763/
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That does look quite an attractive option actually. I have never really liked the narrow frontage of HO
“THESE ARE ACTUAL COMPLAINTS RECEIVED BY “THOMAS COOK VACATIONS” FROM DISSATISFIED CUSTOMERS:”
Hilarious but at the same time deeply disturbing if authentic. How is it possible that a normal adult human being could even think like this? The little Englander nationalism that runs through many of these complaints is a surefire indicator of the extent to which this mental disease called nationalism has infantilised people.
Brexit-voting, xenophobic “whinging poms” as the Aussies would call them. Yuk.
In some ways, you could argue that Kautsky helped to boost the concept of “market socialism”. He seems to have sided with the advocates of a money-based system of accounting as against the advocates of labour-time accounting (and also those like Otto Neurath who repudiated the need for a single universal unit of accounting altogether and argued like us for a system purely based on calculation in kind).
In the context of the so-called “Socialist calculation debate” “market socialists” like like Oscar Lange and Fred Taylor have sometimes been presented as having won this debate against the likes of Von Mises – not by rejecting the need for a market but by incorporating it into their idea of a socialist society in which consumer goods still take the form of commodities but producer goods are directly allocated by the state. It may be a crassly incoherent idea but it a certainly one that has exerted some influence
Kautsky seems to have helped to promote this idea. I am thinking in particular of certain passages of his book, “The Labour Revolution”, written in 1924 in which he states that while “another form of Socialism without money is conceivable” but went on to argue:
“We have not yet progressed so far as this. At present, we are unable to divine whether we shall ever reach this state. But that Socialism with which we are alone concerned to-day, whose features we can discern with some precision from the indications that already exist, will unfortunately not have this enviable freedom and abundance at its disposal, and will therefore not be able to do without money” (ch 3)
Very disappointing. He unquestionably contributed to the confusion into which the term “socialism” subsequently fell
One of the appalling consequences of this stupid senseless war
“An area of Ukraine approximately the size of Florida is now riddled with land mines, which could take hundreds of years to reverse: report”
An interesting article on Ukraine´s dilemma.
It looks very much like its so-called counter-offensive has stalled. It’s not going to get anywhere with this despite NATO assistance. Nor is it going to be allowed to join NATO for the duration of the war and NATO has no desire to get directly involved. Yet the Ukrainian regime has vowed to take back Crimea and Donbass
This is a recipe for the long-term grinding down and impending implosion of the Ukrainian state. Who knows? Perhaps elements in the government will step in and remove Zelensky as a hindrance to what increasingly looks like the only viable option – the partition of Ukraine more or less along the lines that exist today.
At any rate, nothing more clearly demonstrates the stupidity of nationalism on both sides of this pointless conflict from the standpoint of working-class interests
This caught my eye – in the document ZJW referred to. Whatever differences we may have with the ICT/CWO as far as the basics are concerned we are very much on the same wavelength and that is heartening:
“The first local committee made up of CWO members and others, whether in organisations or not, was formed in Liverpool in March last year(5) on the basis of the five principles below:
Against capitalism, imperialism and all nationalisms. No support for any national capitals, “lesser evils”, or states in formation.
For a society where states, wage-labour, private property, money and production for profit are replaced by a world of freely associated producers.
Against the economic and political attacks that the current war, and the ones to come, will unleash on the working class.
For the self-organised struggle of the working class, for the formation of independent strike committees, mass assemblies and workers’ councils.
Against oppression and exploitation, for the unity of the working class and the coming together of genuine internationalists.….
We were also aware that any new initiative would face new problems and that setbacks would be inevitable. The first problem came from the fake internationalism of various opportunists of the Capitalist Left (Stalinists, Maoists, Trotskyists, etc.) who will adorn their documents with NWBCW images or slogans but emptied of any internationalist content.(7) They are flying “under a false flag” (ours!) but can only do so by hiding their real politics which is to support the “underdog imperialism” of “oppressed peoples” (in short, nationalist struggles) or any state opposed to the USA. There is no nation or national struggle which the working class can support today.”
This might be of interest. I came across it on FB (the Communism 101 FB group). Perhaps the SPGB could officially get in touch with the organisers to see if some kind of collaborative effort is possible, despite our differences with Left Coms. Whatever the differences I think we have a lot more in common with them than almost anyone else I can think of
At any rate, it wouldn’t hurt making inquiries…
“Korean Commission as a class war, not a war (NWBCW KOREA)
It’s been over a year since Russia invaded Ukraine. Like other imperialist wars in the past, this one also demands internationalist solidarity and action from the working class of the world.
Now that the imperialist war is taking place in Ukraine, internationalists in the world are firmly upholding the principle of ‘proletarian internationalism’, despite differences of opinion. This kind of internationalist flow says ‘There is no homeland for the workers! They announced a statement in advance, held a meeting and began a joint response.
We started international action under the principle of “NO WAR BUT THE CLASS WAR” with internationalists who recognize that the only war worth fighting is a ‘class war’ to end the imperialist war. This action aims to bring together internationalists scattered today to deliver the need for a counterattack to the wider working class and act together on the principles of internationalism.
<Main Principle>
● I don’t support either side in the war of imperialism. Capitalism and imperialist countries don’t support any “something bad evil”.
● Only the international class struggle to overthrow the capitalist system can end the imperialist war, not through a peace agreement between the ruling classes.
● The current and future wars should be dismantled to counter the economic and political attacks on the working class.
● Class wars can be expanded and developed through self-organized struggles of the working class, i.e. independent strike committees, public rallies, and labor equality councils.
● We are a society where all exploitation, oppression, and discrimination is fundamentally useless! A socialized society that has more means of production are not in the hands of capitalists or countries! We fight for a united world of free producers where production and distribution are in harmony with humanity and nature
Comrades who are interested in 「Korean Committee as a class war, not a war」 or want to participate, please contact us. ( Inquiries : nwbcwkr@gmail.com )
http://communistleft.jinbo.net/xe/index.php?mid=cl_bd_01…
· ·I know it’s the Daily Express and therefore not be trusted but does anyone know any more about this – the Ukrainian military firing off British Storm Shadow missiles at the Desnogorsk nuclear power station in Smolensk region?
