Ozymandias
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Imagine trying to talk to these cunts about a moneyless society. Forget religion, this is the greatest obstacle facing Socialists. How to convince trained murderers to join us.
Yes I'm a prole too. We all are. I just find it difficult to conceal my hatred. I know I'm not the only ex member (or member for that matter) who harbours a secret loathing of our class. At least I admit it. Growing up all I heard was utter contempt and loathing from party members towards the working class. Sneering and patronising was the order of the day at branch meetings and public meetings. It was relentless. These guys hated their fellow proles and very often each other. It's the old ego that gets in the way with us humans.Supercilious members would cast themselves as natural leaders at branch meetings whilst the passive ones would sit at the back saying little or nothing. In social situations members would be so used to congregating amongst other party members that mere dullards outside of the SPGB would all be regarded in the same way…as fuckin idiots. Unenlightened women were regarded even more poorly than their male counterparts. I don't blame any of these members for such attitudes. A few of them ended up in hospital after having been physically attacked by workers who presumably were themselves on the receiving end of some arrogant lecture about the party case. Don't pretend you don't know what I'm talking about.This is why I'll never rejoin the party…partly because I detest workers and partly because of the chauvinism and arrogance I've witnessed. Why do I even bother checking into this forum every day? I guess because the WSM bug got me early on in my life. Many a time I've wished I was just like the vast majority of my fellow proles out there…totally ignorant and unknowing. Seeing life through the SPGB lens is a strange kind of curse which can result in utter frustration at the mass stupidity of workers everywhere. This frustration sometimes manifests itself as hatred. It's a bit of a mindfuckness because whilst 99% of me feels that (even though I hate the cunt) Lenin might have got at least one thing right when he spoke about workers only ever being able to achieve "trades unions-consciousness", there is still 1% of me that holds a wee peep of hope. The fact is today many workers cannot even achieve "Trades Unions Consciousness" never mind class consciousness. On the subject of Trades Unions I've heard people I work with say shit like "I hated Thatcher, but at least she was tough on the Unions" or "This Welfare State situation is really getting out of hand. We'll have to cut it back". Etc etc. Tough anti union/welfare policies are vote winners now. Stupid bastards. The same kind of stupid bastards who were pontificating what they thought the "Fissical Policy" was all about at the beginning of Noonan's classic novel. As far as I'm concerned a peaceful transition to a global socialist society in anyone's lifetime is about as likely as a miracle like an alien visitation happening. I just have serious doubts that workers from every country on earth can pole vault their minds and successfully negotiate such a Herculean task without the planet plunging into self destruct. The 1% flicker of hope is what brings me onto this forum day after day. Its like an oasis of calm and reason for me in a world of cretins. Don't be angry with me please. Rather pity me.
I enjoyed both the first Hunger Games movie and also the recent "Elysium" film. I love Sci Fi anyway. Obviously these films don't go far enough for us as Socialists but what I did like was that I had never really seen the Capitalist Class portrayed like that before. Sutherland is right about the youth, they are thick as shit like the vast majority of the proles but imagine what might happen when they begin to realise that they could become part of the greatest Sci Fact fantasy of all time when it's time up for Capitalism. Such an adventure would be a greater thrill than any movie or video game ever made because it will be tangible and real with all of humanity playing their part. It will either end up in Socialism or global nuclear war. I just think it will be a supremely dangerous time for our species.
Absolutely fuckin brilliant riposte to the "Human Nature" argument. Had never thought of it that way before. Priceless ammunition which I have cut and pasted into my notes section of my phone.
I guess it's this kind of debating style which puts workers off the SPGB. Talking down to workers like they are fucking idiots. The problem is its frustrating because most workers are idiots and its easy to talk down to them. Even the concept of "Teaching the Workers" sounds high handed but then again they need to be taught. However workers hate being preached to. What a fuckin trap we are in.
I applied online. You have to state what you intend to talk about. In the box I foolishly put "Capitalism" and "Socialism" thus probably barring me from ever being able to sit in the audience. What a dork I am! I'll never get on it now. Just shows you how inherently undemocratic this BBC game show is when they filter audiences watching the contestants who flank Dimbleby every week. What I would love to point out to the rest of the audience (if I ever actually managed to get on) is that the layout of seating in the room mirrors the class system within Capitalism. The vast passive majority sitting in the audience and the agents of the owning class (as well as some grandees who are actually Capitalists) sitting on the panel and pontificating.
You are trying to put words into my mouth. I have very little faith in workers whether they are university educated or not. I have this lack of faith because we are still living in Capitalism in 2013. Because workers still by and large fail to stand by one another. Because certain members of my class continue to police/intimidate, torture, maim and kill their fellow humans/workers/proletarians/99%/wage slaves in defence of our masters. Because my class continues to endorse Capitalism in elections and generally supports Capitalism whilst simultaneously having little or no idea what it is. The global Working class. The most intelligent and dynamic class in history. Best Educated? Best schooled more like. Whether in primary, secondary or tertiary education. The fruits of this education can be seen clearly on Channel 4's "Gogglebox". Have you watched this? It is like a sort of visual barometer of common attitudes and beliefs within a broad cross section of the "general public" (the term most in line with how the masters would like us to describe ourselves.) What comes across through the prism of a socialist lens (apart from the great humour) is the depressing ignorance, apathy and incomprehension of those involved whether they are the posh ones who are always pissed, the black ones who are always eating, the gay ones who are always camping it up or the old ones who never stop bickering! They are all in it together. Like one big happy family. Most travelled? According to this article… http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/1920287 60% of all Americans do not own a passport and what would the 1.5 Billion illiterate members of our class be doing with air travel when most of them are trying to survive on less than $5 a day?Least racist? I dont know if you read the latest John Pilger article about Aboriginal Apartheid as featured currently on SOYMB? White Australians turn a blind eye to this disgrace because they have benefitted from and sometime actively partaken in this ghettoisation. Don't mention the Australian attitudes to boatloads of desperate fellow workers turning up on Aussie shores. Look at the rise of Golden Dawn and the EDL, the treatment of the Roma people in France and over here. I watched the horrific aerial bombardments of Tamil workers by non Tamil workers in "The Sri Lankan Killing Fields" which was screened on CH4 Sunday night. Wish I hadn't watched it. It was terrifying and utterly horrible. Workers/proletarians are still racist because they continue to need to seek some group to blame their poverty on. This is due to our economic position in society. Why would I think its invalid to replace the term "Working Class" with "Proletariat" or vice versa? I don't treat the Lumpen as a separate class neither do I describe workers who are a bit better off as "Middle Class". I see them as constituent members of differing gradations within our class. Is it only "many" of the so called middle class who are proletarians? I would have thought all of them were insofar as their plight of forever having to prostitute their labour power in exchange for a wage like the lumpenites down the estate.It's not the thieves and drug dealing element of our class that I'm concerned with but rather the thieves and drug dealers of the Capitalist class. I don't necessarily view the lumpen element as being solely derived from the lowest earning section of our class. I regard anyone in the employ of the military or the police as being honorary lumpeners because they are not involved in direct production or wealth creation but are murderous and violent guardians of private property. Their minds are lumpen because they support Capitalism so much that they are willing to attack their fellow slaves or even give up their lives in defence of it. The Junkies, Chavs and single mothers in Jeremy Kyle land might become some of the most passionate class warriors in the end when they are flung into the maelstrom. They will have most to gain from the hurly burly of revolution.It's the workers involved in the "military industrial complex" who we need to convince the most. Nationalism and patriotism have warped their minds to the extent that they totally believe in the lie they are defending. I don't know why this has always worried me but it has. There it is. I just fear that revolution could create tumult within our class as well as enlightenment. It's the workers all over the world with their fingers on triggers and buttons that will be crucial lynchpins of a global tinderbox of change.
"The reality is we have more in common with the people we're bombing than the people we're bombing them for." This is my favourite quote from yesterday's Guardian article.And then there's this… "We could use the money accumulated by those who have too much, not normal people with a couple of cars, giant corporations, to fund a fairer society." I still forgive him though. God I hope he reads that Standard. Or will his Messiah Complex get in the way of being able to construe our message even if he does read it?
Yes I know all this mate but what of the problem of a "reactionary lumpenproletariat"? You don't think this could pose a grave danger at all? I just think the whole thing could be fraught with danger. As you have probably deduced I have very little faith in the working class. Very little faith indeed.
What I fear is the possibility of sabotage from crazed and fanatic pro-slavery members of the working class. I just cannot imagine some of the idiot bastards in the police or armed forces ever becoming Socialists. I detest these morons. And I'm not only talking about the "Western Democracies". This could be a problem in every country in the world. Could there be a core of these workers so brainwashed by the masters that they could upset the whole apple cart?When I read that the US Military have (for example) been experimenting with the very fabric of space time by trying to create mini time loops within tiny black holes, utilising "Remote Viewers" and spending millions on para-normal research whilst developing hideous microwave death-ray weapons I just fear what lengths these bastards would go to to maintain Capitalism. And no I didn't get any of this from conspiracy theories. This shit is real and it is happening. What could our masters have up their sleeves in store for us should their hegemony be threatened in a unique way which has never before presented itself in history? How many slavish proles would be happy to do their bidding to the last? All you need is a hardcore of crazed saboteurs and we could go up in smoke. I guess you could say the corollary to what I'm saying is just to shut up shop and give up now. But I'm not saying that. This problem genuinely worries me. I just seek reassurance. We have rabid religious fundamentalists, cults, elite military squadrons, triple agents…you name it. I hope I'm so wrong here but I just think that with all of these insane variables concretely in place in a society where 20% of humans are completely illiterate how likely is it that a smooth transition to Socialism could ever be achieved? Please explain why I'm talking shite and how my fears are groundless.
You can't tell me that every last cretin working in the armed forces or police force of every nation on earth will join the class war on the Socialist side.
Fuckin right! So what if he's a flamboyant blowhard. Have we ever heard opinions like his expressed in such an earnest way on telly ever before? I can see the boat coasting away whilst party dithers and debates. Not really the fault of the WSM being so tiny but rather individual egos.
Hi Janet. Yes I may very well attend Summer School next year. I try to bum up the party at every opportunity. I even tried to introduce the SPGB/WSM on the old TZM global forum and ended up getting a long reply from Peter Joseph himself. He missed my point completely I might add. As far as I'm concerned the party is the only standard bearer of real Socialism in the whole world. It is the only Socialist Party on earth. As an edifice it is without blemish. It's just the ego's of individual members that have got me down in the past. I guess that happens everywhere though!
