northern light
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Hi gnome, thankyou for that generous illuminating reply.Hope the Canterbury trip is/was pleasant and fruitful.
gnome wrote:And you, my friend, are sooooooooooooo predictable; never fail to take the bait !Incidentally, how’s the party in Spain going? Must be about to surpass the SPGB soon I would thought with so many trabajadores religiosos to swell its ranks.This is intriguing, and confusing ?I take it ex-member robbo203 is living in Spain, and has joined a socialist party over there, is that correct?Nothing wrong with that, is there? The Forum is open to all. The bit I am naive about is, “the bait.” Perhaps an explanation is in order, ………… por favor.
I found this on my Facebook site. Can anyone tell me if it is a SPGB publication?
TEN SIGNS YOU ARE AN UNQUESTIONING CHRISTIAN
1. You actually know a lot less than many Atheists and Agnostics do about the bible, Christianity and church history, but still call yourself a Christian.
2 You define 0.01% a high sucess rate, when it comes to answering prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works, and you think that the remaining 99.99% failure was simply the will of God.
3. While modern science, history, geology, biology and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around the floor, “speaking in tongues,” may be all the evidence you need.
4. You believe that the entire population of this planet, with the exception of those who share your belief (though excluding those in rival sects) will spend eternity in an infinate hell of suffering. Yet you consider your religion, the most tolerant and loving.
5. You are willing to spend your life looking for loopholes in the scientifically established age of the Earth (4.55 billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by pre-historic tribesmen sitting in their tents and suggesting that the Earth is a few generations old.
6You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about Gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who came to give birth to a man-god, who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.
7 Your face turns purple when you hear the atrocities attributed to Allah, but you don’t even flinch, when hearing about God/Jehovah, slaughtering all the babies in Egypt, in “Exodus” and ordering the elimination of entire ethnic groups in “Joshua” including women, children and animals.
8. You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Trinity god.
9. You feel insulted and dehumanized, when scientists say that people evolved from lesser life forms, but you have no problem believing we were created from durt.
10. You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of your god.gnome wrote:As some of us had suspected from the outset. But here’s the sting in the tail………[…..]Something is amiss alright; could it remotely have something to do with her reluctance and that of millions of other workers to abandon the reformist road? No prizes for quessing that one. We “need to increase the membership” but they’re buggered if they’ll do anything to assist the process.Gnome,I’m a 64 year old ex miner with a broken body, but a mind that still works. I was introduced to the SPGB by my dear departed friend, Bobby Gleghorn. I have attended a few talks (too few) and bought and read a lot of Standards. I sow the seeds of the party, as and when I can, please do not insult me, by suggesting I am a reformist. I simply inferred that your approach to the workers is not working.
Ed wrote:Northern Light has admitted that she has no intention of joining the party and lied about her views in order to test our reaction. She then goes on to criticise us for not campaigning for reforms. I think that closes the case on whether a form A is required.Ed, What I said was, “I can not, will not apply to join the SPGB.Please do not misquote me. The party does not allow entry on religious grounds, so I can not, will not, simple as that.There was a time, if you had told me I was a liar, to my face, you would have been on your hands and knees picking up teeth. I am older and more mellow now, but I still find a remark like that offensive. I have never been in the habit of lying, so if I have made an error, that is all it will be, and I will hold my hand up, and admit it, but, come on, spring your trap!Where do you get this notion that I mentioned reforms, the SPGB is not a reform party. Again you are putting words in my mouth.I posted a list, and said, “These are just a sample of some of the issues in the public domain. The working class is looking for answers, and it is not finding those answers in main-stream politics.”If you are going to play games with me, at least try dealing with a straight deck.
zundap wrote:If there are are all these commited religious socialists out there, why have they not formed their own organisation, or organisations to allow for their differing belief systems?Hello Zundap,I think the answer to that may lie in section 7 of ” Our Object and Declaration of Principles………. the party seeking working class emancipation must be hostile to every other party.
ALB wrote:Even in the 18th century teenage girls were caught faking this.ALB, I was just making reference to the explanation you gave Robbo for the explanation of poltergist activity. I was attempting to bring a touch of humour to the thread, and not infering that I was female
northern light wrote:, till one day, while waiting to ascend from the coal-mine where I worked,Hello everyone,I think you will find we never had women working down the mines, in my lifetime, so that takes care of my gender
ALB, We were at the Vet with one of our dogs at 1am. never got to sleep till 4am and up again at 7am. Wife is getting some shuteye on the couch, and I am dogsitting, and making the evening meal.I will do my best to accommodate you, as, and when I can
TheOldGreyWhistle, I could kiss you brother. You are coming across loud and clear……. IS ANYONE OUT THERE LISTENING TO THIS MAN ??
When I opened this discussion, I had an agenda, ( nothing sinister, I assure you ), and I think all of my questions have been answered, quite eloquently, by the parcipients. From my perspective, nothing has changed. I can not, will not apply to join the SPGB., even though our goals and aspirations are the same.One might say it is of little importance. I would say the membership issue is more relevant now, than any other time in the Party’s existence, not just for people who have a religious slant, but per se. Global Warming…………. is it, or isn’t it ?The war crimes of Bush and Blair, and their croniesThe world-widw recessionThe corruption of elected politiciansCorporate greedThe errosion of care for the agedThe sabotage of the N.H.S.The meddling with children’s educationThe savage repugnant attacks on the sick and vunerableThe deliberate attacks on the Muslem societyThe attempts to fragment the Public sector, by restructuring payMoving capital and jobs to the Far East, then calling our workers, lazy spongers on the State, for not finding jobsRestricting Internet freedom. These are a sample of issues in the public domain, and the Working Class, is looking for answers, and not finding them in main-stream politics.But the SPGB is not connecting with the Working Class. Why is that? This needs to be addressed.One huge turn off that SPGB members parcipitate in, is the use of archaic language, when talking politics. This sort of speech may be fine for the debating platform, but try it in the pub, and see what happens. I think the SPGB needs a new Public Relations makeover.If the SPGB wants to take part in the emancipation of the Working Class, membership has to increase, or as ALB said, “we’re so small, we are esentially a debating group…….” and that is the way you will stay. Surely members must see, that after 108 years, with only 332 members to show, there has to be something amis.How you come by new members is your business, but it seems to me, that with most organisations, the more members you have, the more you can attract. For the sake of Humanity (and we may not have much time left ) you need to increase the membership.
Hi Ed,I thought this had been put to bed by ALB. I was a naughty, attention seeking girl, who made the whole thing up. ( sorry ALB, just couldn’t resist it. ) Anyway, I reckon my story is of no importance, the debate has reached it’s climax.
HollyHead wrote:Some people with religious views may well understand the case for socialism but cannot be said, in my opinion, to have socialist understanding.I do not know what you mean. Can you please put some meat on the bones
Hello ALB,
You are not being impertinent asking what my paranormal experiences were. The stories will be too long in the telling, but I will say this. One involved banging on bedroom walls (forget about subsidence), a grey figure moving in the room, and walking into an ice-cold bedroom (and I mean ice-cold) during the daytime. I did not find these experiences intimidating, in any way.
I can not say the same about the second. I was night fishing by myself, when an overwhelming sense of evil forced me to leave. I am not afraid of the dark. I have fished through the night, by myself, since I was 16. It was not a remote place, and I was catching cod, and did not want to leave. I moved to another place, and continued fishing. These few words will not give you an inkling of the struggle I had with the “nothing.”
Hello HollyHead,
You said, ” Why then jump to a supposed Creator which is beyond the scope of normal objective investigation.”
Well HollyHead, if you are a Scientific Socialist, perhaps you might find some credence in the words of these scientists.
When in 1929 Edwin Hubble proved that the Universe was expanding, Albert Einstein acknowledged “the necessity for a begining and the presence of a superior reasoning power.” He believed ” that God was intelligent and creative, but not personal.”
Heinz Pagels, whose field of work was Quantum Field Theory, and Cosmology said, “the unthinkable void converts itself into the plenum of existence – a necessary consequence of physical laws. Where are these laws written into the void? What tells the void that it is pregnant with a possible universe? It would seem the void is subject to laws, a logic that exists prior to space and time.”
I go back to my original question of why am I not allowed to join the Party, because I have a personal and private belief.
I would suspect when the Party was founded in 1904, the objection would be to mainstream religion, simply because the church
was, and still is, the instrument of the state.
I can find no reference in the Object and Declaration of Princibles, to the fact that people who have a religious faith, are barred, in fact the last line at the bottom of the text reads, ” The Socialist Party calls on every worker to support these efforts in any way they can. “
I close my case.
Thankyou to everyone who has taken part.
And to the few who tried to disrupt the debate……………. UP YOURS.
