Lew
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But I have not met anyone who thinks that this is because they are “an independent ‘self’ not subject to cause and effect.” That would imply that you could think anything you wanted, irrespective of your past and present experiences as recorded (or whatever) in your brain.
It’s not surprising you haven’t met anyone who thinks that, because it would be rather an odd conversation: Hello, do you think you are an independent self, not subject to cause and effect. Most people, including most party members, wouldn’t have a clue what you were on about.
The second half of your comment is philosophical speculation.
It would invalidate the materialist conception of history, if the mind were independent of motive.
This is a different argument and one I wouldn’t dispute. Yesterday I did ask you: How would it adversely affect the case for socialism if everybody believed they had free will? (#238578) and you replied: “It wouldn’t” (#238587).
TM:
members there are who believe choices are not bound by cause and effect, but are free; that therefore they are made by an independent “self” not subject to cause and effect.
For the record, I know of no member who holds such an absurd view. In fact I have never met anyone who does.
It doesn’t matter one way or the other, but I’ve certainly met plenty of people, including members, who believe choices are not bound by cause and effect. They are probably in a majority, but as I say, it doesn’t matter. Socialism isn’t invalidated either way: this is the socialist equivalent of how many angels you can get on the point of a pin.
It flies in the face of all scientific evidence of how the brain works.
I would like to see this scientific evidence.
So a Catholic can join?
There is a question about religion. Obviously you’re not a member otherwise you would have known; nor does party “exclude non-materialists” as you alleged.
It wouldn’t, but then they wouldn’t be materialists. Which is ok by me, but the party excludes non-materialists (avowed), which is inconsistent. It’s inconsistency that annoys me.
The last time I saw the Form A there was no question about materialism, or free will.
In which case I would reply,
“True, but you still need to be restrained.”
Or do you believe in blame and punishment in socialism?Surely restraint is a form of punishment?
“The idea that anarchism mainly appealed to peasants or appears where capitalism hasn’t developed just doesn’t fit with the facts.”
Nobody said anything about peasants. It is a fact that anarchism has been most popular in states where capitalism has been less developed, not that capitalism hasn’t developed at all.
Why was Anarchism more popular in Latin southern Europe, and Marxism associated more with the north?
George Lichtheim dealt with this issue at some length in his A Short History of Socialism (1970). His argument, in essence, is that anarchism flourishes wherever capitalism fails to develop.
Bird: “Marx supported those who regarded it as possible to build socialism upon the Russian Mir (peasant commune).”
But only if the revolution in the West took place:
“If the Russian Revolution becomes the signal for a proletarian revolution in the West, so that both complement each other, the present Russian common ownership of land may serve as the starting point for a communist development” (Russian Preface to Communist Manifesto).
In other words, the material conditions for communism did not exist in the Russian peasant communes alone but only as part of a wider revolution.
“I think I’m right in saying that Douglas Home was never a member of the Conservative Party and was the last non-Tory Labour Prime Minister.”
I think you mean the last non-Tory, Tory Prime Minister.
Incidentally, the Liberals merged with the Social Democrats and became the Liberal Democrats in 1989, embracing “social democracy” in the process. Much was made of the radical (or as Roy Jenkins used to say “wadical”) nature of this change at the time.
So it could be argued that, since the SPGB’s name, objective and principles have remained unchanged sine its formation, it is entitled to claim that it is Britain’s 2nd oldest political party.
Some of it is covered in the second book review:
Book Reviews: ‘Where Do My Values Come From?’, ‘A Guide to Marx’s Capital’, & ‘No Local’
