LeonTrotsky
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Even Bernie Sanders knows that the lesser “evil” is better than the monster he is about to replace.
This election “was about whether or not we remain a country that believes in the Constitution, that believes in the rule of law and that believes in democracy,” the former Democratic presidential candidate said to CNN’s Anderson Cooper. “And thank God, democracy won out. So I just wish Joe and Kamala the very, very best in leading our country.” Bernie Sanders.
Wait for it … here it comes from the anarchists and closet Trumpers, that “Bernie is not a socialist” or “not the perfect/ideal guy”!!!! Hilarious. Meanwhile, they can never name the ideal guy either. Too funny.
It would be highly instructive to learn from you what precisely are the circumstances under which, you imagine, socialism will come to fruition in that case
Though the ballot box, as I’ve already stated a number of times. There are a number of emerging socialist countries that have done that over the last century, and they have all done that incrementally. Social change is a slow process precisely b/c people don’t vote, which plays into the hands of the ruling class. Do you not understand why the ruling class doesn’t want you to vote?
In fact, anyone telling another not to vote is not a socialist. Voting matters, contrary to what the ruling class and their running dogs tell you. GET OUT AND VOTE!
The proof is overwhelming: those countries with high voter turn out have made immeasurable progress in terms of social, economic and political justice. Those countries which have low voter turn-out are the exact opposite. Just take a look at Europe, where you find many socialist and communist parties. There you will find high voter turn out.
You still haven’t answered my question.
Arguing from the philosophy of idealism is proof of not understanding socialism. Marx’s work is philosophically based on the philosophy of materialism, which is rooted in relativism, not idealism. The idea of lessor or greater is an example of relativism, not idealism. Hence, if you are suggesting that you should not vote based on the idea of lesser (or greater) in the name of holding out for the “ideal”, then you are not a socialist. In other words, there is nothing “ideal”, everything is relative.
Basically, the only relevant issue in any election is capitalism or socialism? If you vote for any politician or group of politicians on the grounds that they are the lesser evil what you are doing is legitimising the rule of the capitalist class.
There is one fatal flaw in your argument: there is no such country that is purely capitalist. Countries are blends of market and planned economies, some less, some more.
Conclusion; if capitalism is the “evil” you should never vote for it. You should only vote for socialism as the common ownership of the means of production, with production directly to satisfy people’s needs and distribution on the basis of “from each according to their ability, to each according to their needs.”
Where has that worked, to repeat my question from above?
Do you not think there are marginal (and sometimes not so marginal) differences between how competing parties can / or would manage capitalism? And do you not think that marginal differences can actually be quite significant, especially to those on the margins?
Indeed, but you’re talking to a group of fascists, libertarians, anarchists and pseudo-socialists. Socialists know that social change comes incrementally through the ballot box. By not voting, we are empowering the far right. The US is an example of this.
If the members on this site have not realized that the practice of not voting is exactly what the far right what you to do, you will always be ruled by them. In fact, the 2020 election is a glaring example that went well beyond discouraging voters to vote: Trump and the GOP did everything to SUPPRESS the vote and is continuing to do it in the courts as we speak. How blind can some of us be?
I’d like those who subscribe to the belief that not voting leads to social change to provide an example of a country where this has worked in the last century anywhere in the world. Because I can provide countless examples of social change that have come about through voting.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263749343_How_Voters_Feel_by_Stephen_Coleman
Yawn. Not another publication from a modern day intellectual who is more concerned about how something is said rather than what is said. This has become a common practice in academia today, a practice of intellectualizing common sense in which jargon and bafflegab displaces speaking plainly and clearly, more often than not to hide the fact of something we already know. After all, what does the expression “discourse of arid proceduralism” mean if not procedure and rules? And “saturnalian” if not inviting? Or how about “alternative facts” if not lies? I had a teacher in school who use to call the pencil sharpener “the implement system”. What happened to speaking plainly and clearly? All academics should read Voltaire’s Candide before they publish anything.
… pathetic self-defeating lesser evil argument you peddle here. – robbo
Doubling down on your lunacy only makes you look more ridiculous, if that’s possible. With your attitude, Trump would be in power for another 4 years: no more health care for tens of millions, no green deal, no social services, no environmental protections whatsoever, etc … . Socialism would never come to fruition with your idea of radical, overnight change. In fact, your ideas make matters worse every election, which is the work of only fascists.
LT, you lose the argument when you cherry-picking facts. – alan
You haven’t a clue what you are talking about when it comes to presidents of the US and their military action while in office. It’s obvious by your omissions of what Trump has done.
In his first three years, Trump dropped over 72,000 bombs, a record that no president has come close to since Vietnam. In the worst month, March 2017, it’s estimated the Trump administration killed 1,881 civilians. In contrast, President Barack Obama’s bloodiest month, July 2016, claimed the lives of 312. For Trump, 2017 was an explosive year: The U.S. has said it dropped over 2,400 bombs on Afghanistan, up from 1,337 in 2016. In the fight against ISIS in Iraq and Syria, the U.S. has already dropped 32,801 bombs, compared with 30,743 in 2016. And the U.S. has also conducted more than 100 strikes against Al Qaeda in Yemen in 2017, compared with 38 in 2016. Under Trump, deadly drone strikes have increased 432 percent over the reprehensible pace set by his predecessor.
it was Bush who walked away from the Kyoto Treaty,
Red herring. Stay on topic. Trump walked away from the Paris Treaty. Biden will reinstate the Paris Treaty on day one.
his pick for VP is a former State Attorney who herself had a reputation for conducting draconian prosecution practices.
Harris has received criticism for some of her actions as attorney general, especially regarding criminal justice reform, which some see as contradictory to more liberal ideals. During the primary, other candidates pushed her to defend policies enacted while she was AG, such as a hardline stance on marijuana, that disproportionately affected communities of color. Since becoming a senator, Harris has changed her stance on marijuana in particular. In 2019, while announcing a bill to decriminalize the possession of marijuana on a federal level Harris said, “Times have changed — marijuana should not be a crime.”After six years as California’s attorney general, Harris was elected to the US Senate in 2016. Since then, she has co-sponsored bills aligned with many liberal causes including expanding gun control measures and passing “Medicare for All.” Harris has also voted against many Trump nominees for federal judgeships and top positions inside his administration.In 2019, GovTrack, a non-partisan organization that tracks bills in Congress, ranked Harris as the “most liberal compared to All Senators.” One measure the organization uses is comparing how many bipartisan bills each senator cosponsors to how many bills they co-sponsored in total. Harris had the lowest at 15% in 2019.Try again trumper, but stay on topic this time.We are world socialists and it all depends on who you are. What if i was Libyan? Seeing your country destroyed and turned into a failed state when Biden was VP. What if you were an African American incarcerated when he helped the 1994 Crime Bill? Listening to politicians claiming to be tough on crime calling you a super-predator? Don’t trust me…listen to Sanders and his de-construction of Biden during the nomination debates.
Pinning the fallout of Libya on Biden? Deluded like the QAnon. And when you have to go back to 1994 to try to make a point about his character today, you know you’ve lost the argument.
Btw, are you aware of Trump’s military record? He holds the record for the largest number of bombing raids of any president since Vietnam and he has threatened nations with annihilation. And with what he and the GOP are doing to the environment, there won’t be any country or people to protect after they are finished.
(Biden) won’t be able to initiate any substantial legislation…no Biden-Care, no Biden-Green-Deal.
How can he do good when you say he is, in your words, “the proven evil”? You can’t have it both ways.
If there is no socialist on the ballot, dont vote or spoil your ballot – robbo.
Lunacy. Trump is re-elected and life becomes exponentially worse for labour, not to mention the planet. Your argument is that “if I don’t get my way, I’m not voting”. Let me say to you that you will never get your way and you will always have the enemy in power with that juvenile attitude, at least in the US. Time to grow up.
Having urged workers to “vote Biden” how are are you then going to present yourself as a credible critic of the regime once it inevitably starts screwing the workers over as it will from Day One
In other words, you are saying “vote Trump” and make a statement, which is equivalent to cutting your nose off to save your face. No one said that Biden will represent labour. Far from it. But there are no choices for labour on the ballot. You don’t get it. Whining about that fact gets you nowhere at best. Btw, you still haven’t said who you would vote for.
