L.B. Neill
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We want them infected, an email leaked from the White House. The lovely bourgeoise class of the USA and its leaders, loved by millions of workers want them to die for the cause of herd immunity like animals in the jungle. Where are we going ( world working class ) take consciousness of our real interests, and stop defending our own class enemies? In my dictionary, it is called class conciliation
MS that is a gloomy picture- sometimes I feel the dominating class treat we workers as a herd: herd management đ„
Thomas I did not click the link, I have had my fill of Trotskyist ideology- but MS has cheered me no end at the stark of this fine day!
In herd solidarity,
L.B
Cool heads yes, but there is no room for complacency, comrades.
Matthew.. right on the button. And there is no room- Can you imagine spreading the viral load from one client to another… not to mention our family and community.
We have talked science and believing on other threads… need to keep it in mind, facts based, not ideological spin. We should not abandon that method, though requiring further testing, but builds to a bigger picture…
I have a feeling, me first… as usual… but needed by us all.
However, i may not be on any medical lists being a foreignerâŠi may have to pay the full commercial price of a vaccine. And if it is near the price of anti-rabies shots which i recently hadâŠit will be close to a 100 quidâŠso if you come across a vaccine effective at room temperature, mail me some.
Alan, I did not know your situation. It is not ethical for health care, or any kind of care, to be based on wealth- and due to this, the problem will be increased. I need to work- so I won’t test.. I can’t afford the jab… so I go unprotected… and the such.
Vaccine politics is showing the wealth/poverty divide so systemic in capital societies. And between them..
ALB, I have thought that too. I want to be altruistic; and I don’t want to not be altruistic.
I work on the frontline of social assistance- the less known frontline worker. But we are all frontline- hate that idea of promoting one or the other.
The numbers are rushed in any emergency. Get it out, and get some solution… quick. We can wait for more testing… almost meta data for large scale population vaccine… know its effects, efficacy… its known results… or we do it on the fly- go and assess.
I am not biomedical but look at it through social/therapeutic evidence based practices… and yet, time is needed (my respect to those who came forward for the clinical trials).
ALB- it is choice… some narratives in employment are already saying “no jab:no job”. now that is coercive.
Again, the best choice is know the science. The best defense is universal practice of hazard reduction.
Can anyone give me some info on the history of long-term adverse effects from vaccines. One of my neighbours, though not anti-vax per se, isnât going to have a Covid vaccine because itâs unproven and thereâs no way of knowing of adverse effects in the longer term. He would (quite sensibly) rather remain healthy than have tens of thousands of pounds of compensation lobbed at him years hence (assuming liability could be proved).
Hi Rod. Usually clinical trials of any immunization or pharmatherapy take place in relatively controlled studies. You might know of control groups (blind testing on placebo and treatment being tested).
Thing is these are usually sample sizes or n- number of people in the study (sometimes the numbers or n can be 40,000 in trials [numbers of trial participants can be made to relect a ratio of the population as a whole]). The issue is that when rolled out in general populations, more  evidence can be gleamed from greater numbers, and some adverse reactions, or even more known benefits (what a binary). Time and numbers is important in smaller trials to get a snapshot of its efficacy.
I won’t name a particular pain medication by brand (or I would publish a nightmare for myself), but it started out as private patient (and small numbers), but when it became subsidised and public patient, the number of patients using it increased, and so did the observed side effects (adverse) become more known… and so could screen out and monitor those not suitable for its use
it is a tough call, but a call that can be managed… trial number and time… and tweak the cohort it is administered to, is better than not using it.
Open disclosure is so crucial, and informed choice or notional assent..
Depending on the decision to get it or wait, following universal hazard precautions will be the first defense for self and for others.
Be safe all, I know you are going into festive season, and in Europe winter is cocktail for transmission: warm moist environments indoors and the human need to huddle.
 George Bush vs Al Gore. This situation is totally different
MS, same as yesterday: same today; and the same tomorrow.
There is no difference. Stand on the same street corner- did poverty go away, no.
Call all the names of the presidents- ask their ghosts past or present… Ask that basic question: did poverty go way (rhetorical question)… NO.
Why? Someone needs to clean up our shit the past presidents would say.
So we get fed trickle down economics: getting shat on from a great height. We produce and receive waste. There is brass in muck
The situation is not totally different- it is more of the same, but dropping from a disputed height- turd or squirt.
AJ,
I know. We need science to be… science.
A socialist narrative of vaccine will have no hidden spin. Science for its sake. Response to it for its sake.
I am aware and work in the effects of lockdown. And it has been on my toes since Feb 2020.
There has been increase in Family Violence, substance use risks, mental health, and so on. I wish a whole of science, social and bio-med, could have planned things better to reduce the impact of this pandemic.
We should make all side effects open, not conceal it- but we should focus on the science and not what uninformed debate says- Socialism is about truth and mutual trust… this needs a science and not a spin of this current regime. Pure facts and informed choice.
The current regime produces split uncertainties and narratives- these antagonisms have gone on for too long, and I tingle with anticipation for the time to come- then we will have a response to these critical health responses without ideology, nor the need for spin.
 authoritarian regimes are using the pretext of the pandemic to impose draconian controls over protests and demonstrations.
And yes. There have been civil protests, cancel culture movements, and so on- and directly impacted by the lockdowns. It is complex.
One thing is clear- the current regime is now open for discussion (Sadly left/right extremes)- and we need to cut to the chase: centre a voice on why these voices under COVID have erupted, why they shout each other down… and offer the historical reality… a societal transformation and an end to history and to end being managed as a herd, as cattle…
We do not need vets- we need fantastic health with no apex- the erupting voices are the proximity and howls from the electric fence.
How capitalism exacerbates the problems of it, how some of the advisable approaches to contain it expresses the socialist idea of altruism and mutual self-interest, how some of the solutions would be even more effective with a socialist administration, and why socialism offers a scenario of future less risk of another pandemic of this scale.
AJ, the idea is great.
Money constrains and couples pandemic responses to its use- market concerns.
Under socialism we make use of human produces/responders, and mobilise according to need. The primacy of market (monied interests) would end the parasitic drain of knowledge and skill and human will centred in capitalism- and centre response without any market constraints, nor profit margin- sheer utter ingenuity and will of society. A proper human economy! Socialism as ‘human economics’ in its most basic needs, wants, based form.
Housing: done. Health: done. Welfare: done. Not a profit in sight: no human plight… Done!
And more misinformation by Karen (becoming a global name for racism, anti mask and alt right expressions):
This time it is a letterbox drop- offline- must check my letterbox!
LBird,
twc often gives sobering advice suitable for correction of an idea. He once encouraged me to detox from some ideological nuances based on reformism. The river now has less twists and turns.
Consider it method critique… less ‘redoubling’ and logical loops.
We can all get a little heated… but we debate and it leads to discoveries- be prepared to discover, and sometimes to receive correction!
đ
Thatâs precisely what Iâm arguing â âallâ have to be involved in democratic social production. To me, that is what democratic socialism would be.
Funny that LBird- “what Iâm arguing” . I statements are inescapable.
To bring about socialism we must be pro-social. I and we will still be phrases.
We may argue the same thing- but in insults, or negligence- our Is cloud us.
Yes we all need to be involved, and some may choose not to- what will you do with those who choose not to be involved?
I got ‘what the’ before- but now… I ask a question… do you know how many people around the globe may view this exchange and seek answers to questions. I or we: society is my answer.
Bloody hell LBird- can you read between the lines?
I know we need to keep the dialogue open. Debate is helpful- but calling shit on the people who have experienced oppression- other than ideological divisions- is a real hurt.
Read my last post again.
L.B. Neill wrote âIâŠâ.
Iâm a democratic communist, so I always refer to âweâ.
LBird, you made me smile with this comment. And I thought of Lacan and his theory of I Function. We discover ourselves in the mirror as an infant. It is a real ‘I’- I see myself, and it is me. We get introduced to language. We lose that sense of I: it is interpolated into we. Thing is, it depends on who says we.
It is about time we asked one another what that we or I means to us all. If I write I: it means I have said or wrote a thing. I am not the Borg- resistance is futile… But I and we must rhyme (selfish altruism). But you really knew me (I) you would say do something nice for ‘yourself’ as there was too much altruism… But you do not know me, nor I you- so we can ask questions of one another (you said it first).
Please don’t let the last retort be an I insult. You have no idea of my lived experience (and I hope you have never experience it).
I know when autonomy is taken away- in all its forms. I and we who have experienced that will say never again- do you comprehend?
L.B.
I donât think there is any dilemma. Sometimes, inevitably, the interests of government and working class may coincide, as for instance with the establishment of the welfare state in 1948. Should socialists have opposed the welfare state because it suited the interests of big business, even though it probably added 20 years to the lifespan of the average worker? That would be a nonsensical and indeed anti-working-class position to take.
PJS,
Like your comment… it does raise the notion of reform to protect the working class health interests over reformism (impossible for capital to reform its self interest).
We all deserve to stay safe, bugger the costs!
Perhaps we can put an end to the narrative of financial ‘health burden’- look your customers need to stay alive… sounds really morbid.
No money: no deficit.
hope you are safe,
L.B.
He was good at football. Yes… He used gender based violence ‘womaniser’ I think you said MS.
Complex world indeed. I just reflected on society’s need for heroes: it maintains the apex structure of power (work hard and you can be like the hero we generated)- food for thought. So besides the pandemic, it is now rubber bullets.
