L.B. Neill
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Hi ALB,
It has been a while since I said hello to you!
The use of tactical nuclear weapons would have seemed in the domain of an existential exercise over a year ago.
I remember chatting with friends that Russia would not use a land invasion- the idea seemed barbaric and out of step. But it happened.
What concerns me is the use of the demonstration of such a weapon out of spite and shock- to shock Ukraine into submission on a local level.
I hope not… the tantrums of oligarchy seem unfettered by societal accountability. Like kids smashing their toys if asked to share… mere tantrum and reckless spite.
Sorry my post is less than elegant today and more emotive than critique.
If the psychology of an unpredictable ruling class is pathological- who knows what they would do.
I dare say it points again to the only solution: socialism or barbarismI must say: it feels easier to post my attempts to grapple with this topic without TS hurling putdowns on my humble remarks and questions.
I agree.
His flaunting is too much.
I had responded to him in a way I usually would not. I do not like that. There is no debate nor reasoning with him.Putin’s TrueScotsman:
And yet: no!
Sorry, but you seem not to be a Celt from my understanding, or my position as one.You seem more ‘war, war” type of person.
We shall declare war on the beaches- and send our working classes to fight and die..
… yet you sup tea from your tent and delight in knowing people die for a needless cause.Sip your tea. And shut the hell up. From now on I will not respond to you. Shout all you will to your Oligarch… I am ceasing any response.
NATO is the imperialist tool of the world hegemon, the USA, so those who resist it are by definition anti-imperialist and require understanding at least, not condemnation, or so goes the argument. Those who position themselves on the left, but condemn Russia, are supposedly social-imperialists.
Q? Is that you? Q Anon one world government conspiracies. Yet you have added SPGB to your list of supporters! Novel to say the least.
Hope all runs okay for ya Q… me, I am flummoxed with intrigue 🙂
“It was a report on RTE radio, I tend to listen to RTE rather than BBC as it appears to be less heavily biased that BBC and you often hear international stories that aren’t reported in the UK.”
Thank you! radio telefis eireann was the go-to media when I lived in Ireland before migrating.
It has its own local bias: yet maintains independent as possible journalistic coverage.Yes less heavily biased and less influenced by the City of London (Commerce).
We hope it is never okay to target civilians, not ever… TS think mindfully to BD and his question. This is one of those boundary lines…Thank you for your response. It seems we found a way to communicate without symmetrical negative retorts. I prefer that, it is conducive to discourse. So, thank you.
“They are delusional fanatics. The fate of the world is literally in the hands of a small group of delusional fanatics who believe Russia is just one step up the escalation ladder from complete defeat. But Russia is not. Russia is winning.”
Fanatical belief seems systemic in today’s world order. States produce messaging through their ideological state apparatus , having one believe there is a just cause and a matter of principle on either side. The Regressive apparatus (Army, Police and traditional forms of power) are simply engaging in a capture of markets. Corporations may not lob a weapon with such crudity in a hostile take over, yet the principle and inter-discursiveness is that… war for market control of a people and its resources. I know you may not see it this way, but this is how it seems to me and many others, but we will not get full recursion on that idea.
“It’s up to the people of Europe to start putting their bodies in front of weapons shipments. If they’re serious about avoiding a nuclear war this is a good place to start”
The socialist intention is education leading to awareness of our oppression and collective wish for a pro-social society. Parliament is our only tool- a tool of a class or groups of people alienated from the means of production and anterior to the accumulation of wealth. It is through democracy that we get a collective will of the social group and change the base/structure (it economic and its ideological articulations). Bodies of our dear brothers and sisters is not the way. That is a barbarism in Rosa Luxemburg’s “socialism or barbarism”.
TS, I wonder if you may consider that nationalism and vilification of the Ukraine is the narrative Russian state officials are using to legitimise the war. Wonder if you might consider the sub narrative (aside narrative) might be the capture of markets to compete against the Western economies- increasing their economic base through annexation to retain a larger relevancy against OECD blocks.
Time is money: war is money.
Stay safe and thank you for your challenges, it assist focus a point of view, even if you might not share it.. maybe at times it may lead to concurring: like socialism or barbarism.
Socialism or barbarity… that we can agree.
An improvement of sorts.
The prediction of use of nuclear weapons made my heart thud!
This is a localised oligarchic division for the competing interests of a small and powerful social group… I believe that nuclear options work against their interests, seizing the market, and not blowing it all up!
I admire your dislike and hope that it never eventuates into nuclear options
Correction: Not spud.
Spuds are what the likes of pro-Putin ilk will have us eat, while they polish their tin stars granted to them by Putin in the service of keyboard stalking of socialists or anyone who questions.
Don’t get me wrong- the humble spud is a staple diet of the working class in many regions. So there must be another term you can use other than ‘spud’.
In the age of exposing capitalist oligarchs and their 30 year seizure of the apex structure after the USSR rebranded from state capitalism to oligarch capitalism, surely we can come up with a direct remark.
I propose: “what an oli-follower’! After all our humble spud should be reclaimed by us.And I am sure TW is not a billionaire with vast interests in Russia, nor any accumulation of capital in his grasp- only the prospect of a dull tin star.L.B. Neill care to rein in your mutt? Thought not.
He is not a mutt, nor is he ‘mine’ to control.
Your concept of ownership clearly extends to people and using terms to dehumanise people, mere chattel of a needless war generated by oligarchs. Chattel in Eastern Europe, and on forums. You objectify people and degrade them… the war front from your keyboard… targeting people trying to end oppression and challenge your rigid fanatical thinking. That said:BD, Robbo and others have comments to make. They have their own style of argument different to me. They are ending oppression by democratic means and by education.
We can all do better at arguing the idea and not attack the person.
There are many paths to socialism… and the common goal is a ‘prosocial’ society.
What is happening in this war shows the barbarity of competing capital interests
What I see in this war is barbarity.
Do you agree or disagree: it is either socialism or barbarism?
Starting the topic again with more civil tones.-
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“More distraction from the main issue – the anti-working class aspect of this capitalist conflict”
I concur. TS has a habit of interpolating pro state sanctioned oligarch discourse into the discussion.
The point is: working and marginal classes are pitched against one another and alienated from their common interests. Dying in droves for an illusion and an obscured and manipulated construct, becoming fearful of one another.
Russian and Ukraine working classes have common nodal points- yet ripped from their shared experiences by competing forces and self interests of the oligarch.“Enough!
You have belittled. You have engaged in derogatory and violent remarks throughout this debate.”
Erm, ok dad. Loving the dumby spit. May I remind you that I never set the tone of this discussion? It was members on this site who did. I have been ridiculed and insulted from my very first post here as has anyone else who deviates from your anti-socialist faux Marxism. Thing is, I don’t mind getting dirty and rolling in the mud. Perhaps you should share your admonitions around a bit more fairly to include members of the home team such as Bojo’s half baked Brains and Knobbo? I still won’t take your screed seriously but at least I’ll respect the consistency.
“What I do know is that if a person seems to have no empirical ‘verifiable’ facts to back up their position and challenged: they devolve into base and disruptive behaviour.”
I know you’re not talking about me because I consistently provide evidence for my assertions.
“Near fascist actions”
Hyperbole much? Lol
“you might say, they devolve into vitriol and verbal violence as the last line of defense.”
When pointing the finger at someone, three are pointed back
at you. Anyone who fails to take the correct anti-socialist line on this site is ruthlessly pilloried. Just ask Lizzie or me.“My empirical verifiable evidence for this conclusion: most of your above posts.”
Wawawa! You sound like a baby.
“You base your commentary on nothing more than aggression as a signifier of being right.”
Nope, I base my conclusions on verifiable evidence. The tone was set by other members on this thread way before I ever showed up. You want a more collegiate tone, throw out members like Bojo’s Brain and Knobbo. Til then, you get a shit show.
“Settle down and engage in adult debate.”
I’ve tried on multiple occasions even suggesting an end to all name calling. All-in insisted that the name calling should continue.
“Some of us want to debate, put some views across and learn.”
Yeah? Well plenty of you don’t. Go back and read some of the insults directed at me by other participants.
“But you suck the oxygen, like a vacuum bomb, right out of the place…”
Don’t like the heat? Get outa the kitchen.
“making it awkward for some of us to discuss it without being harassed.”
Oh, you poor darling. You gonna crumple like a dried wall flower if someone slings a bit of mud your way? The tone was set way before I ever arrived.
“Demonstrate you are not an apex clown of the lower order”
Lol. Pot meet kettle. What a joke.
“debate not degrade!”
He says after degrading. You do see what you just did there right? The hypocrisy is priceless.
“Your behaviour sounds close to oppressive and more like fascist techniques!”
More tone setting. How do you think I’m going to react to being called a fascist? I suggest a bit of introspection. Clown.
“Does your behaviour represent Russian aggression and the attitudes toward tensions… perhaps.”
Huh? What’s Russia got to do with anything? If someone insults me, I insult back. It’s as simple as that.
“If your attitude is systemic of what is fueling the war: then it gives us some insight into colonial and imperial causal factors.”
Gobbledygook.
“If you do not want to use verifiable data, then least we can use your cognition as the data in itself.”
I use nothing but. Seen me quoting from the CIA lately? No, that would be Alan or Bojo.
“Take a bloody good look at yourself!
Enough!”
Wawawawa!
Q.E.D.
You know, I have noted the term ‘gobbledygook’ used by other posters in other forums. similar traits as you too..Be kind to yourself, and to others.
TS: “But I thought it was a WW1 “stalemate”? Lol! You bunch of faux Marxists. I thought Marxism was based on materialism. You jokers are idealogues. Evidence goes out the window with you clowns. Russia is winning decisively.”
Enough!
You have belittled. You have engaged in derogatory and violent remarks throughout this debate.
What I do know is that if a person seems to have no empirical ‘verifiable’ facts to back up their position and challenged: they devolve into base and disruptive behaviour. Near fascist actions you might say, they devolve into vitriol and verbal violence as the last line of defense.
My empirical verifiable evidence for this conclusion: most of your above posts.You base your commentary on nothing more than aggression as a signifier of being right.
Settle down and engage in adult debate.Some of us want to debate, put some views across and learn. But you suck the oxygen, like a vacuum bomb, right out of the place… making it awkward for some of us to discuss it without being harassed.
Demonstrate you are not an apex clown of the lower order: debate not degrade!
Your behaviour sounds close to oppressive and more like fascist techniques!Does your behaviour represent Russian aggression and the attitudes toward tensions… perhaps. If your attitude is systemic of what is fueling the war: then it gives us some insight into colonial and imperial causal factors. If you do not want to use verifiable data, then least we can use your cognition as the data in itself.
Take a bloody good look at yourself!
Enough!
Hi twc,
Thank you for this thread.
It seems ‘discernment’ of the material this vast ‘AI data miner’ produces really does need human conscious attention to both process and re-articulate its data into our meaning making practices.
In the mode of production queries you inputted above… I felt that there seemed something ‘afoot’ in the variations of socialist thought.
I wanted so much for it to say: ‘socialist states’ that use money is state capitalism. I wanted it to state a socialist society is yet to come into fruition.
It seems discernment of its output is still required… it is a forward processor and seems less an integrated processor-
I would hope people are encouraged to consider how to use and interrogate its ‘answers’. I consider programmer ‘bias’ may encode the ‘essences’ of their particular agenda in the search results…. lot to consider as a user, never mind the developers and their own observer/developer bias.
I’m curious to research it now, and thanks for the thread,Well said both BD and Robbo.
I may be a post structural thinker. I wear that label. I see TSs statements as projecting fascism onto the other: while engaging in a field of discourse that opens up a new period of fascism.
Russian imperialism is very real (the engine room of any capital class). And it uses the very same arguement and ideology of ‘defending democratic ideals’ whilst using the tools of oppression and legitimising them as said defenders of democracy.
The only sane stance is to express concerns for workers killing workers and point out the the false ideological myth building being used to put a spin on this war. -
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