jpodcaster
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Didn't quite work for me – the idea was good but just felt a little cheesy. The Greens are normally pretty good at putting forward a positive message against the negative electioneering of the other main parties so I think they dropped the ball a bit on this one.Wondering whether Derek Wall is still a Green Party member? I remember he used to be pretty sympathetic to socialism and was always happy to debate with the SPGB.
Interesting figures Jon. You can criticise LU for many things but how many political organisations are that open about their membership numbers and finances?Genuine question – how does that compare with the Socialist Party's membership over the past 12 months?
Couple of interesting articles on Corbyn's supporters. Are they mainly hard-left Trots looking for an entryist opportunity or a genuine grassroots movement involving ordinary voters/workers?http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/09/trotskyists-young-labour-members-jeremy-corbyn-tom-watsonhttps://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/09/jeremy-corbyn-supporters-voters-labour-leader-politics
Clifton was a gain from the Tories (if you know Clifton you'll know that was a good result!), Easton and Windmill Hill were gains from Labour and the rest from LD.Ferguson's an interesting character – Although an ex-Lib Dem I think the Greens support him on a number of things he's introduced, mainly relating to traffic and transport. Beyond that I'm not aware that they're that supportive of him although they did vote against that vote of no confidence in him a while back.
Bristol the new Brighton? Not in control but the Greens have made significant gains.http://www.bristol.gov.uk/LocalElectionViewer?XSL=main&ElectionId=69
Robin, FWIW the Greens recognise this and advocate using empty property use orders to halve this figure. See http://greenparty.org.uk/values/housing-2010/housing-detail.html
stuartw2112 wrote:It was a car crash, but would an SPGB candidate really do any better under that kind of questioning? After all, you're proposing, not 500,000 new homes, but social housing for the whole planet. How much would that cost?It was indeed, and not the first time it has happened. Reminded me why the Green Party should have stuck with principal speakers and no leaders! Still, she's human, she's admitted she fucked up, apologised to GP members and I won't lose sleep over those who claim that they'll no longer vote Green because of the interview.If the SPGB ever gets to the stage where it has the media presence of the Greens (#socialistsurge?) I'm sure there will be plenty of similar cock-ups. Unless they are going to spend millions on media strategists and spin doctors?
Adam's 'workings of capitalism' had me immediately reaching for some EP Thompson as an antidote/ant-acid!I think the Greens have done well despite the awful pro-UKIP bias of the BBC. Encouraging for Left Unity and the SPGB that breakthroughs can happen with lots of hard work on the ground and with good use of social media.
Which begs the question – will the SPGB be rejecting this call on the grounds that they only want votes from committed socialists?
Quote:Well, maybe it was a bit of a liberal use of the word, but today's Weekly Worker have announced they are calling on workers to vote SPGB.http://cpgb.org.uk/home/weekly-worker/1008/cpgb-aggregate-left-strategy-and-election-tacticsTheir article says 'a critical vote for the SPGB in Wales'.http://cpgb.org.uk/home/weekly-worker/1008/eu-elections-trying-to-vote-internationalistTV broadcast? When is it being shown? As a former Green Party member I found their election broadcast last night a bit cringeworthy to be honest …Out of interest what would you consider a success in terms of % vote for the SPGB in the SE and Wales? I know its more about contacts and raising awareness but genuinely interested in what you would consider a 'breakthrough'?
gnome wrote:jpodcaster wrote:Anyone know why there are no SPGB candidates in the South-West constituency for the Euros?Yeah. Contesting elections requires fairly large resources, both human and financial. The SPGB's effort is being concentrated in those regions (South East England and Wales) for logistical reasons. In the first because there are members ready, willing and able to stand as candidates and to do the necessary groundwork and in the second partly because it qualifies for a Party Election Broadcast.
Bit of a liberal use of the word 'some' there Jon – 1 or 2 at most?
Anyone know why there are no SPGB candidates in the South-West constituency for the Euros? jondwhite wrote:Allow me to try and stop the going round in circles of the old favourite semantic song 'Do you know 'one true socialism'? No but if you hum it I can try and play the tune'.It looks like with the left in disarray, as I predicted on page 36 (post #357) some lefties are considering voting SPGB.http://www.theleftvote.org.uk/?page_id=473http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/left-candidates-in-the-may-elections.323112/Sadly there's only one person re-writing history here Lew and that's you. But then of course it has always benefited you and other SPGB'ers to see WiC as Robin's creation. Still, nice of you to clarify the facts for everyone. Seeing as you obviously have a huge chip on your shoulder regarding the formation of WiC perhaps you'd like to start another thread rather than hijack this one?
Lew wrote:Robin wrote:This isn't the first time Robin has attempted to re-write history, nor is it the first time I have had to clarify what happened.Robin resigned from the SPGB and created WIC late in 2002. WIC was to be communist but "not the SPGB" on the subjects of religion and the "big bang" notion of revolution (see posts on the WSM Forum at this time). Thus WIC was conceived as being communist but against the SPGB/WSM on those issues. The next year Robin began to post suggestions on the WIC forum as to what they were specifically *for*. He argued that WIC should seek "common ground" with like-minded individuals and organisations, and eventually this became the informally accepted rationale for WIC. However, the WIC forum group description makes the false assertion that they were "specifically set up" to "strengthen ties within this sector". The Wikipedia article on WIC alleges that they were established to "overcome the sectarian divisions" – by creating yet another sect.Robin again claims above that WIC seeks "commonalities" "rather than what divides". That may be their attitude now but it wasn't always the case. Aside from re-writing history, the basic charge still stands. There is someting rather hypocritcal in people claiming to seek commonalities, being opposed to what divides, and spectacularly failing to do so by creating yet another grouping.– LewWas the debate with Tatchell recorded Adam? Would like to hear it if it was – have a lot of time for him as an activist. Is he still in the Green Party?
ALB wrote:Why are we talking about "reforms" and "reformism" when there haven't been any reforms for ages (he last I can remember is free bus travel for old age pensioners).Workers' struggles these days are about trying to stop things getting worse by existing reforms being taken away. So the classic reformist strategy of gradually advancing towards socialism by a series of reforms (as advocated for instance by Peter Tatchell in his debate against us the other day) doesn't have any credibility.Nobody is against people trying to stop their conditions getting worse, though it can be questioned whether this is helped by being linked to a political party (whichever, and LU is not the only one, just the latest) still wedded to a reformist strategy and still asking for reforms when none are to be had (why campaign, for example, for a citizens income when there's no chance at all of getting it, not that it would solve workers' problems anyway?).I suppose my dissatisfaction with the SPGB and the revolutionary left (even though you reject the term) in general stems from what I see as a fundamental disconnect between its ideas (or the way it expresses them) and the lived experience of the working-class. Sadly as I get older I get more pragmatic – I've come to the conclusion that I'll never see the SPGB's version of socialism in my lifetime and as Stuart says, we do what we can given the current conditions and try and draw a line in the sand and hope that others stand behind the line with us. What I like about Left Unity is (a) they are keeping alive the discourse of socialism, whether or not you agree with their definition of it and (b) It does seem to me to have a genuine connection to working-class people and their organisations/communities and seems to be far more representative of working-class interests in the here and now, rather than what we'd like them to be at some point in the future. I think LU have made a pretty good fist of it so far – 2000 members in a few months is nothing to be sniffed at. Its also nice to belong to an organisation on the left where a decent proportion of women play a key role, something that the revolutionary left has never achieved. No central committees in sight as far as I can see which has to be a good thing. Plenty of internal dissent and disagreement which is to be expected given its composition, but a real committment to openness and democracy as far as I can tell. Who knows, if they manage to get 10,000 members and 10-15% of the vote in the Euro elections next time around then they might bloody a few noses? p.s technical point – is it me or do forum posts take ages to load on this site?
Enjoying the debate on here and good to see Robin on here contributing, have always enjoyed your posts Robin and usually agree with most things you say. But I couldn't help chuckling to myself after reading your defence of the SPGB – an organisation that poured nothing but vitriol on your attempts to argue for some degree of unity for the non-leninist revolutionary left back in the day. You might forget easily but I don't – looking back on that period I think the treatment of people in the World in Common network by the majority of SPGB'ers that gave a fuck (most probably didn't) was frankly disgraceful and reinforced to me why they will never be a vehicle for revolutionary transformation – they are the ultimate sectarians. Although I met many good people in and around the SPGB as an organisation they seem (and still seem to me) stuck in the 19th century. Define a set of ossified truths around a concept of a post-capitalist society then label everyone who doesn't share the one true path 'reformists' and 'leftists.' And as for the working-class the reason they are joining the likes of Left Unity and not the SPGB – lack of class consciousness. Easy isn't it?The reason I mention this is that I think there are some parallels with Left Unity and World in Common in so much as both organisations contain people who are/were prepared to admit that they didn't have all the answers and, importantly, were prepared to put sectarianism to one side and work alongside others with similar yet different politics. That to me is ultimately the only way we'll get rid of this dreadful system and bring about change that benefits us all and is why I think that, despite the problems that will inevitably occur in the messy politics of Left Unity, in the absence of any other group or organisation that connects with people who want genuine change, it is worthy of support.As an aside I was talking to a colleague in the office today – she is not what you'd call 'political' in the traditional sense of the word but she was slagging off all the main parties and Maria Miller in particular. They're all corrupt, she said. Except that I was really impressed with a bloke speaking on the TV the other day – his name was Salman something or other and he was part of a new party called Left Unity. I think I'll check them out.No doubt the veil of false consciousness will lift from her sooner or later
