J Surman
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Young Master Smeet wrote:Maybe a good outcome would be more municipal autonomy, although I believe local government in Istanbul is AKP controlled.
Yes Istanbul is AKP. What's happened since they came into power in govt about a decade ago is that there has been a gradual 'transfer' for personal interest of politicians, certainly in local politics, into the AK party, even including going on the Haj (very publicly). Money has been thrown to localities to buy votes – ask rural and urban Turks – there is much cynicism about this but the most oft-heard phrase is 'Burası Türkiye' – 'This is Turkey' and long-suffering acceptance. It's great to see so many waking up and deciding they don't want to take it any more. But where it could go from here, who knows? The population is predominantly young and the problems of unemployment are large, similar to many other countries graduates can't find suitable employment. There are so many contributing factors, but the biggest one seems to be the general feeling of lack of democracy.
Here's the beginning of an article in Hurriyet Daily News which I believe catches the gist of what many Turks are saying: The heart of the matter is hidden in just two lines:“Dictatorship does not run in my blood or in my character,” Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, June 2.“To me, social media is the worst menace to society,” Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, June 2.All in all, it looks like Prime Minister Erdoğan’s ambition to raise sin-free, all sober and devout generations could take longer than he hopes. All the same, the opposition should not rub its hands in anticipation of “the beginning of an end;” Turkey’s anti-Erdoğan masses did not grow; but their anger did.Once again, Mr. Erdoğan looked amusingly unconvincing when he tagged hundreds of thousands of protesters as “looters, marginal and members of illegal organizations;” or when he blamed nationwide protests on “foreign enemies who envy Turkey.” But for the deaf, useful and disposable idiots, Mr. Erdoğan once again clarified his understanding of democracy: Dissent is legal only when expressed at the ballot box! (His words).The past four days were no doubt “scary” for Mr. Erdoğan and his men, although one government MP shrugged off the protests, saying “they think they can start a revolution with their drunken heads.” Honorable members of parliament; the drunken heads made the headlines all around the world except Turkey where “top news channels” preferred to broadcast cooking programs at the same moments their foreign colleagues were covering the protests in every detail. Self-censorship could not have been exposed better. (end of quote)His (Burak Bekdil) full article is here: http://tinyurl.com/ks3rjr4Below is the list of demands from the 'ocupiers'. Exactly who they are from the masses there is unclear. I've also read a report that 'representatives' are to meet with authorities today for discussion – but whether these will be the same persons who knows? And thinking of the US Occupy is this a point where infiltration of corporatists etc could take place?Occupy Gezi Demands by Taksim Dayanismasi [Taksim Solidarity]TO THE PEOPLE AND THE GOVERNMENT!1. Gezi Park will be preserved as it is. It will not be exposed to anyfurther works under the name of a barracks, mall, residential area, ormuseum, etc.2. Unarmed and non-violent citizens who are congregating to exercisetheir constitutional rights will not be exposed to police violence.Those arrested for exercising these rights will be set free. Allpolitical, bureaucratic or public staff who have given the order toattack demonstrators exercising their right to assembly, those directingthe attacks, and those individuals applying the violence, should beprosecuted in line with relevant legislation.3. The main aim of the government's privatisation and environmentalpolicies is to monitor public profit. So that they may benefit thecitizens of Turkey equally, the transfer, sale and renting out of publicspaces, beaches, waters, forests, streams, parks and urban symbols toprivate companies, large holdings and investors will end.4. Democracy does not consist only of going to the ballot box to cast avote. Democracy guarantees the state itself as every group among thepeople expresses its needs and complaints without experiencing fear,arrest or torture. This resistance is a struggle for freedom ofexpression and freedom of thought. Those who want to save the park todayhave received the same treatment as those who advocated the headscarfyesterday. The Gezi Park resistance refuses every type of oppression.5. We have seen the television channels, newspapers and news websiteswhose professional duty is to protect the public good and relay correctinformation have neglected for days this country's citizens, youth andelderly who have been coming to Taksim's Gezi Park to exercise theirconstitutional rights in a peaceful manner. For the media to haveannounced our resistance to the people on its fourth day is to disregardtheir professional duty. In this we call on the media—and especiallythe media patrons who owe their wealth to the people—to act in anethical and professional way.TO OUR FELLOW DEMONSTRATORS!1. The demonstrations will continue until the awaited clarificationregarding Gezi Park.2. To prevent degeneration, the resistance will abstain itself fromvandalism, swearing, alcohol and destroying the environment.3. Permission will not be given to any political group, organisation orideology to claim ownership of the resistance. The resistance willproceed shoulder to shoulder regardless of ethnic group, religiousgroup, political party or gender identity.4. With the aim of discouraging speculation, no news, tweets or rumourswill be spread without corroboration. No information read, heard orreceived from the news will be accepted without question.5. Demonstrators will use media tools to respond to the newspapers,television channels and news websites spreading false news to show thegovernment is in the right. As their readers, audiences and users wewill warn this media and invite it to objectivity by telephone and email.
To add to my previous post, I just found this;http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/juancole/ymbn/~3/ckWD3Kaj1m8/turkish-majorities-policies.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=emailfrom Informed Comment which says something similar but also adds some figures from a public opinion poll showing the cross section of Turks and how they feel about various aspects of govt policy. There's definitely a huge deficit of democracy and that is repeated to me over and over by friends and neighbours.
The article below is from Taksim Square from a guy who says he's a union member. He calls it an 'occupy' movement and certainly at the moment the square is being occupied.http://truth-out.org/speakout/item/16741-like-a-tree-like-a-forest-in-taksim-squareThe media here is covering little of what's happening around the country but social media is filling many gaps.I think what the guy is saying is a pretty accurate account of the different kinds of people involved. Anger has been building up against the PM Erdoğan and his overly dictatorial stance for some time now. Some reasons: involvement in Syria – very unpopular; tightening of rules re alcohol – starting 2 or 3 years ago when Istiklal Caddesi's street cafes/bars were forbidden to serve alcohol outside and now some new countrywide restrictions; that the PM should be involved in what is built where in Istanbul, why he is being the spokesperson; two youngsters reprimanded in the Ankara metro for kissing in public (which caused immediate protests of public kiss-ins; Taksim Square has been a public space since the foundation of the republic – the first tree was planted by Atatürk and the PM is determined to make it a private space (like UK shopping malls) – it has also traditionally been used for protests and for May Day demos. So these are a few things that have built up leading up to what's happening now in towns all across the country. There are lots of other things too, a real mixed bag and the media is tightly controlled and/or self-censored too.Calls now are mixed but generally for the fall of the govt or the removal of the PM (who's out of the country now for a few days visiting N.Africa).It will be interesting to see what happens today and tomorrow as there's been a union call for a 2 day strike. On TV Russia Today has reasonable coverage -( you can watch RT online if there's no satellite coverage – is it banned in UK like Press TV is? They also do reasonable coverage.)The smaller political parties, CHP, BDP have been calling for some time for a 3% threshhold to replace the longstanding 10% which effectively keeps them from getting significant seats in parliament.
SocialistPunk wrote:I get where you're coming from JS, but the religious zealots are far from bored with the likes of us.Just trying to inject a little humour into a seriously taxing matter!
I don't know about anyone else but I'm getting bored to death by God so they'll soon be able to add one more to the total.
Please make sure some are sent to the summer school at Birmingham. I, for one, would like one. Thanks.
Thanks for the info Matt. I've usually just blamed our super-slow 2G mobile connection for time outs etc.Now I'm hoping to be able to give you some good news in a couple of weeks or so.All the best, Janet
This one is apposite:http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/climateandcapitalism/pEtD/~3/yaiVisu9h0k/-put her funeral out to tender (Ken Loach)
From matches to dispatches –We live in the 'dead centre' of the village, next to the graveyard. Whenever there's a funeral the lane is packed with every form of transport you can think of and all the men arrive on foot, 3-up on a moped, crammed minibuses, cars, vans, push bikes and a string of tractors, with and without trailers full of men. The corpse usually arrives on one of the trailers. 30 minutes later it's all over, back to work, get on with the day. A very simple affair but with huge community support for the family concerned.
SussexSocialist wrote:And isn't marriage a choice now, I don't remember the state or any other capitalist institution forcing anyone I know to get married now or in the past….?You're right in that it isn't or wasn't mandatory, however social pressures because of the way various institutions are/were organised have been a large part of the problem. No doubt attitudes have changed enormously in the last 50 years but the 'swinging sixties' weren't as free and easy as some may imagine. Access to housing, the contraception pill, a double room in a hotel, giving birth to and raising 'bastard' children, adopting or fostering children – so much easier for married couples. I would certainly see negative reasons like these for some to let go of their principles.
alanjjohnstone wrote:Also i think we are being very parochial in the debate, associating marriage with our own UK culture. So i will widen marriage.Re 'being parochial' my view point on this is that we should endeavour to focus as widely as we can in each and every subject we discuss, remembering we are a tiny part of the global working class with myriad different cultures and norms.Taking a very broad world-wide view we have to recognise the R word factor too. Religion plays an enormous role in the institution of marriage. Polygamy, still practised widely, is another example of patriarchy – if the man can afford it he can have four (I think) wives and umpteen concubines. Egalitarian it is not.Without economic restraints or social pressures I can't imagine any kind of law being applied to marriage. If a couple did decide to separate after having committing to each other previously what would the divorce or separation document consist of?
http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/socialist-standard/1910s/1910/no-76-december-1910/case-free-love-some-capitalist-hypocrisies-exposedDon't understand how this happened – This link to a relevant article in the Socialist Standard from 1910 came by e-mail in response to a post but I don't see it on the forum thread. It says what we've been saying, and more.Thanks to the one who posted it. No need to explain!
