[J Surman]

Even so, I wonder whether we shouldn't call their bluff and invite them to meet to compare their "statement of aims and principles" with our "object and declaration of principles"?This sounds like a brilliant idea to me too – a great way for other interested individuals to hear it from the horse's mouth.  Is there a way of bringing these last few posts to a wider audience in order to get more feedback from members?

[J Surman]

Thanks I got it from stephen's link. Strange I can't access the scribt ones – never had a problem with that before.

[J Surman]

I think there's a problem with the scribd site – I tried all the links and could connect to none of them. Am I the first to experience this I wonder?Janet

[J Surman]

Here's the end of an open letter from the Egyptian activist collective. Hints that some do have ideas beyond simply the fall of one regime:

Quote:

None of us are fighting in isolation. We face common enemies from Bahrain, Brazil and Bosnia, Chile, Palestine, Syria, Turkey, Kurdistan, Tunisia, Sudan, the Western Sahara and Egypt. And the list goes on. Everywhere they call us thugs, vandals, looters and terrorists. We are fighting more than economic exploitation, naked police violence or an illegitimate legal system. It is not rights or reformed citizenship that we fight for.We oppose the nation-state as a centralized tool of repression, that enables a local elite to suck the life out of us and global powers to retain their dominion over our everyday lives. The two work in unison with bullets and broadcasts and everything in between. We are not advocating to unify or equate our various battles, but it is the same structure of authority and power that we have to fight, dismantle, and bring down. Together, our struggle is stronger.We want the downfall of the System.

Comrades from Cairo Whole article: http://roarmag.org/2013/06/from-tahrir-and-rio-to-taksim-the-smell-of-teargas/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+roarmag+%28ROAR+Magazine%29

[J Surman]

While I'm at it, for those interested in how economics is playing its part here, this article explains how Istanbul in particular is seen as a wonderful opportunity for capital accumulation – and how much of the population is against mega-projects, underway or proposed.http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/urban-population-objects-to-sale-of-istanbul-by-rent-seeker-actors.aspx?pageID=238&nID=49676&NewsCatID=344And here's a link to Burak Bekdil who is very outspoken against the PM, this one pointing out numerous examples of lies and provocations:http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/see-how-they-forge-the-lie-against-allah.aspx?pageID=449&nID=49610&NewsCatID=398There's another rally planned for today in Taksim.

[J Surman]

Below is a piece from today's Hurriyet Daily News giving information from Greenpeace International. I knew that Turkey's environmental credentials aren't good , having been involved in three local protests – one against a quarry and cement works, one against removal of a forested hill containing an ancient site for the purpose of creating a golf course in a tourism area, the other against a hydro-electric system in a vulnerable valley – but had no idea that it was recognised as 4th worst threat to the world. Also much on people's minds are the proposed 3rd Istanbul airport, slated to be the biggest in the world, with the most traffic – twice the capacity of the current Ataturk airport and the 3rd Bosphorous bridge, recently begun. Erdogan wants it to be named after the slayer of 40,000 Alawites, Sultan Selim 1st (known as The Grim), which has gone down well with Alawites! There seems to be no end to his enormous foot in mouth proclamations.from here: http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/greenpeace-hits-out-at-foreign-plot-conspiracies.aspx?pageID=238&nID=49686&NewsCatID=340Demands for democratization have for the first time overlapped with demands for environmentally sensitive policies, during the mass demonstrations that have shaken the country in the course of the last two weeks, according to the head of Greenpeace. Kumi Naidoo also hit out at the government's portrayal of the protests as part of an "international conspiracy."What started as the protest of a small group over the demolition of Gezi Park near Istanbul’s Taksim Square turned into mass demonstrations and as such the activism of civil society in Turkey has attracted the attention of the whole world, said Kumi Naidoo, Greenpeace International Executive Director, on June 27.Mass demonstrations that have taken place in Brazil lately are partly inspired by what happened in Turkey, added Naidoo, who will participate in a rally that will be held Saturday in Istanbul to raise awareness about global warming.‘Disturbing’ stats He said Turkey’s environmental statistics were very disturbing. With more than 80 projects planned for fossil fuels energy, Turkey ranks number four in terms of posing a threat to the world, coming after China, India and Russia, according to Greenpeace.“We know that many local communities have stood up largely on their own to protest an irrigation project or the construction of a coal power plant,” Naidoo said.He also criticized Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan’s stance of seeing a foreign plot behind protests and accusing foreign groups of provoking people in Turkey.“Most environmental struggles are led by locals, not Greenpeace. We follow them and we support them,” said Naido adding, “If Mr. Erdoğan believes that people in Turkey are told what to do by foreigners, then he really does not understand what’s going on. It seems I have more faith in Turkish people’s conscience than Mr. Erdoğan.”Naido said he had praised the solidarity shown by Erdoğan to the Palestinians, as well as his initial stance on Syria. He said he appreciated Erdoğan’s call on Syrian leader Bashar al-Assad to listen to his people’s demands, adding, “I thought it was a positive voice at a time then no other leader was saying anything.”“But there is a big irony because Bashar al-Assad had said exactly the same thing that Erdoğan is now saying; that basically everything is instigated by foreigners,” said Naido, adding, “All the credibility Erdoğan has built as a regional peace builder has been wiped out.”

[J Surman]

If I may revert to what the thread began with as I've just seen this (below) from New Democracy World's 'daily digest'  about the ongoing situaution in Brazil.newdemocracyworld@simplelists.comIt's an answer to an e-mail question about what could be done in Brazil right now and parallels broadly what we would say individually, don't you think?Not having detailed info, we can only make generalizations, but I feel surewe would do much as we do now; that is, encourage people to make democraticrevolution the open and conscious goal of their struggle.Within the goal of revolution , the tactics would be:1) Spread the struggle to all elements of the working classes, farmers andagricultural workers, etc.. Extend the struggle to the workplace, with massstrikes, occupations, takeovers of all production, etc..2) Win the military to the Revolution. Encourage soldiers' councils, etc.3) Promote everywhere democratic discussion of a new society . What shouldbe its goals and direction, how should real democracy be organized?Within this broad framework, I think New Democracy would want to show thatthe idea of a new world is an extension of the best values that ordinarypeople already exercise in their lives . Revolution is not a step intounknown territory. It is a step into the best of what working peoplealready do now, and extending it to the whole of society. Ordinary peopleorganized in democratic discussion–not political or intellectualelites–are the best judges of the possibilities and organization of thenew world.I assume that all or many of these things are being done now in Brazil;they are the things that people have always done when they become moreconfident and conscious of their own power.Of course there will be many elements of the status quo that will seek tosidetrack and destroy the Revolution: the Left, the Right, the U.S., allantidemocratic forces. So New Democracy would have an additional task. Inaddition to promoting positive ideas about people, we would want to:4) Subject all anti-democratic ideas and forces to exposure and defeat.These are my thoughts. I'd be interested to hear others'.Dave Stratman

[J Surman]

alanjjohnstone wrote:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/turkeys-crowds-return-armed-only-with-flowers-8669864.htmlThis story of protesters throwing flowers at police lines reminded me of that famous Banksy mural of a youth hurling a posy rather than a molotov cocktail.

Just to comment re the carnations: we have here, and have experienced on several occasions, the 'National Traffic Jandarma Day' when all traffic is stopped by the traffic jandarma and vehicle occupants are presented with a carnation, a piece of turkish delight and a refreshing few drops of lemon cologne in the hands. Even to the lengths of boarding buses and coaches to present the same to all passengers, and to be congratulated on the traffic jandarma day. It's true!What we want to see here now is policemen crossing to the other side. Who's side are the individuals on? Is this vain hope?

[J Surman]

A lesson in democracy?An interesting article I'll paste the link to below but first a couple of excerpts re the newly emerging 'assemblies' springing up quite rapidly. From what we can glean from friends, both Turks and 'foreigners', in istanbul, it really does seem to be involving people from all standpoints and different walks of life – all generally totally pissed off with the ongoing authoritarianism and especially the micro-managing from the PM.1. Something quite amazing is happening in Istanbul. In addition to the silent “standing man” actions around the country, people’s assemblies are slowly starting to emerge in different neighborhoods across the city. As in Spain, Greece and the Occupy encampments before, the protesters in Turkey are starting to counter-pose their own form of direct democracy to the sham of a democracy proposed by Erdogan’s authoritarian neoliberal state. If there was ever any doubt, this shows how deeply intertwined the global struggles truly are.2. Interestingly, the members of the popular assemblies in Turkey use the same hand-signs as the indignados, indicating that some of the methods were directly inspired by the real democracy protests in Spain. This, in turn, seems to confirm the idea we raised very early on in the Turkish uprising, and a claim that many Turkish activists have been making from the very start: namely that this movement is not just a local or national protest, but part of a global struggle against the subverted nature of representative capitalist democracy and for real democracy and total liberation.3. The direct democracy of the squares is also about saying that we cannot wait for some distant revolution to overthrow the capitalist system. We are currently facing a global humanitarian tragedy, an ecological disaster and a profound social and political crisis. We have to act now. We cannot rely on corporate elites to do this for us. We cannot trust in political representatives to take the process ahead. The only ones we can trust are ourselves. We, the people, will have to carry this revolution forward. Starting now.4, At the end of the day, the assembly is a very simple phenomenon: it is about ordinary people craving to be heard and to have a say in their lives. Assemblies are a way to allow those who have been shut up for years to finally stand up in dignity and to speak their voice — and be heard. It is about recovering our collective sense of humanity from the rapacious claws and unrepresentive institutions of the capitalist state.http://roarmag.org/2013/06/assemblies-emerging-in-turkey-a-lesson-in-democracy/

[J Surman]

ALB wrote:

Also, Stratman argued against using the word "socialism" or "communism" to describe the sort of post-capitalist society aimed at, using instead "revolutionary democracy". Once again, not beyond the pale or the end of the world, as we too have discussed this. Stan Parker pointed out in his review that the words "revolutionary" and "democracy" have been just as much dragged through the mud as "socialism" or "communism".Still, it's good to see that "thin red line" of those advocating genuine socialism (whatever they call it) has got wider than it has been for years.

It's so important to try and interpret/understand how different nationalities or groups perceive the various terms. In the US socialism and communism are much dirtier words than in the UK because that's how they've long been portrayed by the governing elites to suit their purpose. I'm not trying to teach granddads to suck eggs here – it's that sometimes we have to spend so much time and effort trying to put others straight about what the terms don't mean rather than promoting the core principles and just wish we could get on with spreading the ideas without having to stick labels on them.Another point, I don't recall seeing anything that reveals what/who the 'movement' has as followers/members/advocates. Have I missed something here or is it just these two guys?

[J Surman]

alanjjohnstone wrote:

Came across these folk who appear to share and overlap with ourselves on the road towards socialism in many regards.http://newdemocracyworld.org/revolution/Thinking.pdfhttp://newdemocracyworld.org/We could mail them a selection of our pamphlets and books…if we can afford the postage, that is…A bit more comradely and fraternal than just website links.

I've had a look at their sites recently and found a lot of interesting stuff there. It's definitely a surprise when you stumble on similar minded folk. We have to bear in mind that the word 'socialism' in itself is much more abused than used correctly and that US attitudes are shaped very differently from UK or European ones. Many shy away from using the term even. Anyway, I too would call these fellow travellers and it seems like a good idea from Alan to send them some things from the SPGB – a goodie bag. Maybe with a request for feedback. They, too, are trying hard to spread the word – there's a lot to delve into on their sites.I also notice that they are now being picked up and reposted by other sites – Countercurrents etc

[J Surman]

Things are getting very nasty here. It's very difficult to see where it will head but brutality from the police gets worse by the day it seems. Pepper spray is being used in the water cannons, the Divan Hotel and the Hilton, which have been used as medical facilities  and resting plces for protesters, have been invaded by police firing tear gas. Medical staff have been rounded up and threatened with loss of jobs, protesting laywers have been detained and threatened. The governor of istanbul has appeared on TV saying the problems are only small and painting a picture which is obvious to anyone checking out the different channels that the man is either a liar or a moronIf you haven't already seen there are details of a public meeting in London next week at the LSE with 5 or 6 Turkish academics gathering to discuss this issue – on the events section of this forum.Read this from a resident protestor:  We Need Your Solidarity With #OccupyGezi Now! by Barış YıldırımTurkey's PM Recep Tayyip Erdoğan (now aka Recop Tazyik Gazdoğan, a pun on the PM's name and the Turkish words for "truncheon," "water cannon," and "teargas") issued an ultimatum at a so-called local election kickoff rally in a suburb of Ankara, which everybody knew was an attempt to counteract #OccupyGezi. Only a few hours later, Turkish police, working as the PM's official militia, launched a brutal attack on Gezi Park.  At this moment (in the earliest hours of June 16) Taksim Square and vicinity are under heavy teargas bombardment.  Police are repeatedly attacking Divan Hotel, a part of which has been used as a makeshift medical facility.  Many, including children and old people, are injured and being choked on gas.  Many also report that police are using a chemical that burns the clothes and skin of people.Some pieces of news circulating on social media and a few national media:Plainclothes policemen pretend to be injured and then arrest and beat up whoever comes to help (@TaksimGParki)."All physicians should go to Taksim!", "An hour more of this, and it will be the darkest night of Turkey's history.  Anybody who has an ambulance should send it to Taksim!" (Istanbul Medical Chamber and Turkish Medical Association).Mustafa Altıoklar, a famous movie director who is also a doctor, started a makeshift medical facility, but he is afraid to announce its address because he doesn't want police to know.  For police are brutally attacking medical facilities, too.Sabahat Akkiraz, a famous folk-jazz singer and also an MP: "Today politics is over for me.  I refuse to sit side by side with those who are oppressing their own people.  My life is not important at all!"The head of the main opposition party CHP urged police not to obey the orders that are against international law.  Many MPs are also attending sit-ins and other protests.  One of the MPs (Sezgin Tanrıkulu) has even been tear-gassed in the face while trying to act as a mediator.  But no strong action from Parliament as such.The number one TT on Twitter #1MilyonYarinTaksime (inviting 1 million people to Taksim to protest the government) was eliminated from the list and replaced by #1MilyonYarınKazlıçeşmeye (inviting 1 million people to PM Erdoğan's rally) in a matter of minutes.  It is a common belief that the ruling party, at the beginning of #OccupyGezi, contracted social media manipulators specifically to manipulate Twitter, which the PM calls "a troublemaker."Hundreds of people are injured; thousands are being forced to inhale teargas and other unknown chemicals; children, old people, patients in makeshift medical facilities — all are under attack.And yet the Governor of Istanbul calls this "a neat intervention, which doesn't even necessitate the word 'intervention.'  Only 29 are slightly injured."  However, the number of makeshift medical facilities alone probably far exceeds 29.  @ayagakalktaksim reports a woman (Elif) lost her eye during one such "intervention."  Police are using rubber bullets and aiming them directly at heads.At the very moment I'm typing these words, all of Turkey have begun to stand up even as Taksim and Gezi Park had been "cleared" of protestors.One of the biggest highways in Turkey, E-5, which unites Asia and Europe, is shut down by demonstrators walking towards the Bosphorus Bridge to join Taksim protesters.Virtually in all quarters of Istanbul thousands of people are protesting.  Especially people from the Gazi Quarter, where more than 30 people were shot to death by police in 1995, are forcing their way to Taksim.In Ankara, which has been subjected to a nightly routine of teargas torture for days, more than ten thousand people including MPs started a sit-in.  Many quarters of Ankara are protesting.The body of Ethem Sarısülük, whose autopsy indicates that he was killed by a police bullet in the head and who will be buried tomorrow, was in Batıkent (an Ankara suburb) today, accompanied by thousands of people.  Those thousands are now together walking towards the Ankara-Istanbul highway.İzmir, Adana, Mersin, Zonguldak, Bursa are just a few of the cities in revolt against the brutal assault on Gezi Park.Whenever they attacked, they were defeated.  Whenever they stooped lower, we stood up stronger and increased in number.  We can defeat this attack, too, with more solidarity from you.We need your solidarity — in all forms and all languages!Follow Barış Yıldırım on Twitter @prometeatro and @yazilama.

[J Surman]

Re the Communist Party of Turkey's demands – (Marxist Leninist) – in light of the current cross-Turkey protests. I read this today and think it will be of interest to others of the SPGB:The Choice for the Working Class Will Certainly Be Created by the Communist Party of Turkey1. For days now Turkey has been witnessing a genuine popular movement.  The actions and protests, which have started in Istanbul and spread all over Turkey, have a massive, legitimate, and historic character.  The most important of all is the striking change in the mood of people.  The fear and apathy has been overcome and people have gained self-confidence.2. The Communist Party of Turkey (TKP) has been part of the popular movement from the first day, mobilized all its forces, tried to strengthen the proletarian and revolutionary character of the movement, endeavored to spread a mature attitude of discipline, and organized numerous actions and demonstrations.  In this process, the police forces carried out a heavy assault on our party headquarters in Ankara.  All over Turkey, several party members have been injured and arrested.  There have been some attempts at abduction of our party cadres.  But the attempts at provocations against our party have been defeated.3. Our emphasis on the role of the TKP does not aim to underestimate the spontaneous nature of the movement or contribution of the other political actors.  On the contrary, the TKP has stressed that this movement has an aspect that is beyond the impact of any political actor or any kind of political opportunism.4. The call of the masses for the government to resign is an absolute truth of this movement.  Although it is obvious that a leftist alternative cannot be built "right now," this demand should be expressed loudly.  This option for the working people can be generated only through benefitting from the energy that came out of this historical moment.  The TKP will focus on this and expose the real meaning of alternatives like "the formation of a national government," which will most likely be put forward to deceive the working masses into thinking that the crisis can be overcome that way.5. Without a doubt, the holders of political power will try to calm the people down, institute control, and even attempt to use the situation to their advantage.  They can have temporary achievements.  Even in that case the popular movement would not be wasted.  The TKP is ready for a period of stubborn but intense struggle.6. In order to act in concert, different branches of the socialist movement sharing similar goals and concerns need to evaluate the rise of this popular movement immediately.  The TKP, without interrupting its daily missions and activities, is going to act responsibly regarding this issue and endeavor for the creation of a common ground in line with the urgent demands below.7. In order to nullify the plans of the government to classify and divide the popular movement as legitimate and illegitimate, all forces need to avoid the steps that might cause damage to the legitimacy of the movement.  It is the political power that attacks.  The people should defend themselves as well as their rightful action but never fall into the provocation trap of the government.8. While the masses are chanting the slogan "Government, Resign," the negotiations limited to the future of the Taksim-Gezi Park are meaningless.  The government pretends not to understand the fact that the old balance has been upset fundamentally and cannot be restored.  Everybody knows that the popular movement is not the product of sympathy for the trees in Gezi Park.  The anger of the people is over the government's urban transformation projects, market terror, open, direct interventions against different ways of life, Americanism and subordination to the US, reactionary policies, and enmity towards the Syrian people.  The AKP cannot deceive the people with a discourse of "we will plant more trees than the ones that we will chop down."9. While rolling up our sleeves in order to create the working people's alternative, the movement needs to stand behind certain concrete demands.  These demands are valid in the case of the resignation of the government or of Erdogan:a) The government must announce that the projects that involve the demolition of Gezi Park and the Ataturk Cultural Center are terminated.b) Those who were taken in custody during the resistance must be released and all charges against them must be dropped immediately.c) All officials whose crimes against the people are proven by the reports of the commissions that are formed by the Union of Bar Associations and local bar associations must be relieved of their duties.d) The attempts to hinder the right of the people to get true news on the developments must be stopped.e) All prohibitions regarding meetings, demonstrations, and marches must be repealed.f) All de facto or de jure obstacles that block the political participation of the people, including the 10 percent election threshold and the anti-democratic articles of the "law on political parties," must be abolished.g) All initiatives that attempt to impose a uniform way of life on all people must be stopped.10. These urgent demands will in no case affect our right and duty to continue the opposition against the political power.  The people's reaction to the government must be reinforced, and efforts must be concentrated to bring about a real alternative in the political scene.11. The star and the crescent Turkish flag that was intended to be used to provide a shield for reactionary and chauvinist attacks against laborers, leftists, and Kurdish people after the fascist military coup of September 12, 1980, has now been grasped by the people, taken from the hands of fascism, and given to the honorable hands of Deniz Gezmiş and his comrades, as a flag in the hands of patriotic people.12. The people's movement, ever since the beginning, has persistently frustrated the sinister strategy to play one community against another in Turkey.  This attitude must carefully be maintained, leaving no room for chauvinism or vulgar nationalism.13. Appealing to our Kurdish brothers and sisters, we had already declared that "there can be no peace agreement with AKP."  There can be no deal with a political power on which its own people have turned their back and the true face of which has been revealed.  Kurdish politics must give up "cherishing hopes of proceeding further with AKP" and become a strong constituent of a united, patriotic, and enlightened working people's movement.14. Our citizens who have lost their lives through the hands of the police force of the political power have sacrificed their lives in the name of a just and historic struggle.  The people are never going to forget their names, and those who are responsible for their deaths will pay the price before the law.Central Committee Communist Party of Turkey 4 June 2013And to follow this for some perspective, the election stats for the previous few years:1999 General Election: 37,671 votes (0.12%) as Sosyalist İktidar Partisi2002 General Election: 50,496 votes (0.19%)2007 General Election: 80,092 votes (0.22%)2011 General Election: 64,006 votes (0.15%)In the 2007 election, the party obtained its best result (by percentage) in Ardahan on the border with Georgia, where it got 787 votes (1.42%).[1] TKP does not maintain offices in Ardahan.The PM is due home today after his N African tour. We expect to be bombarded with rhetoric. The ministers and MPs of the AKP have largely been compliant but there are questions being raised by intellectuals as to whether there could be some undercurrents readying to challenge him. That seems to be the greatest hope.  A national opinion poll would be handy right now.  

[J Surman]

ALB wrote:

Thanks, Janet. Interesting stuff. As you are on the ground there can you cast some light on the group behind this leaflet that was handed out at the May Day demonstration we went to in London:

Alevis/Alawites wherever they are are a sect of Shia Islam. Defenders of separation of religion and state – secularists who believe in individual freedom of choice, They have no mosques, but instead cemevis which are simple gathering places for prayers and other events. Our next-door village is largely Alevi and we see them as more liberal in all senses of the word than the majority Sunni. (Alevis generally considered to be around 20% of pop.) We attend their annual picnic day where men and women gather together freely in dancing, drinking alcohol and eating, generally having a good time together. In Sunni gatherings the men and women tend to gather separately by custom and even if the men drink the women don't.Nationally the Alevi community has been persecuted for a long time – they are perceived as a breakaway sect – and, not being Sunni , as outcasts. They have been targeted by nationalists and by 'weirdos' recruited by elements of the 'deep state' – fire bombs into hotels where they were gathering or incidents at cemevis. The media will often report on arrests of suspects but they are dilatory on following up.As to whether Alevis are represented in the protests, I've seen nothing that shows them as a discrete group but I'd be very surprised if they weren't involved in large numbers  as individuals. Similarly, as yet, political parties per se are not represented although some members of parliament have been/are there, certainly from the CHP (republican people's party) and the BDP (the Kurdish party, Peace and democracy). The people prevented the leader of the CHP from speaking early on in the protests by singing loudly over him.I've got more to add re the communist Party, but as I lost all I'd written a little while ago, I'll do it in a separate post. 

Quote:

No constitution without Alevis. Alevism cannot be forbidden.We Alevis are raising our voice for recognition in Turkey. Alevis are once again protesting Turkey's Alevi policies. We are demanding a "Secular and Democratic Turkey for Equality for all". British Alevis says NO to discrimination, assimilation and Alevi rights violations in Turkey. Freedom for Alevism.This protest is for:(…) compulsory religious lessons to be abolished.To terminate Ministry of Religious Affairs(…) Stop building mosques at Alevi villages and towns.Policies promoting assimilation to be stopped.Stop our homes being marked, threats and blackmailing.Stop alienation of those fasting or not fasting (…)To end Sharia domination in Turkey.To end questioning of people based on their religion, language and ethnic background.

It was signed "Alevi Cultural Centre and Cemevi".According to wikipedia "Alevis" are a breakaway group from mainstream islam (similar to the Alawites who are said to hold sway in Syria). They seem an enlightened lot. Wikipedia says they could make up as much as 25% of the population of Turkey. In which case they could be a bulwark against the re-islamisation of Turkish society pursued by the present government there.Have you come across them? Are they involved in the current unrest?[/quote]

[J Surman]

ALB wrote:

. Remember that the last "democratically elected" Turkish prime minister who took re-islamisation too far, Adnan Menderes, was deposed in an army coup and hanged. A similar fate might await Erdogan. I wouldn't shed any tears.

Don't forget Erbakan, the islamist,(Freedom Party was it – i can't recall?) who was removed by the constitutional court at the behest of the military in spring of 1997. Around that time Erdoğan was the mayor of Istanbul and was ımprısoned for hıs speech quotıng relıgıous texts as metaphors and was seen as a threat to secularism.Also, important to remember is that it's not strictly urban/rural because so many Turks have moved fairly recently into towns/cities that you have a mixture totally different from UK urban/rural. It's too simplistic to view things as on a par to UK communities. What you do find , however, is that as you travel further into Anatolia – in general – the people are more conservative, and that doesn't necessarily mean more islamist, but more holding on to the old ways of thinking and doing .Many people are' believers' in a non-fundamentalist fashion but as to Islamisation in certain sectors the Gülen movement has infiltrated the police in a fairly big way. Fethullah Gülen was exiled nearly 20 years ago and lives in the US – in itself an interesting topic – calls himself an educator, a peace lover, and he has a pretty large following here. It is said that Erdoğan and Gül, the president are adherents of his but how can we know for sure?Another thing to be aware of is that government workers, police included do not take employment where they choose to be posted but are mostly working in areas that are some distance from their 'homeland' in a succession of postings through their working lives. This can mean that the police may be somewhat detached because they are not living in their home neighbouhoods.It's a very complex situation – 'nuff said for the moment.

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