DJP
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Looked up who it was who came up with the ‘state as monopoly on violence’ idea thinking it was one of the anarchists, but seems that one comes from Weber, the godfather of sociology and enemy of socialism.The thing with ‘justice’ like all words is a hard thing to tie down, depends in what context it is being used. Besides retributive justice “an eye for an eye” there’s also amongst others distributive justice, which is to do with fairness. But what is seen as fair of course depends on a persons social background and cultural conditioning. Since there is no such thing as an objective moral truth (as far as I can work out) it all comes down to different groups trying to put their beliefs onto others, how people come to agree on the game and the rules of the game if you like….
dogmatic wrote:I agree with you on everything except the bold part which has been proven wrong : Okishio’s theorem is a mathematical theorem formulated by Japanese economist Nobuo Okishio. It has had a major impact on debates about Marx’s theory of value. Intuitively, it can be understood as saying that if one capitalist raises his profits by introducing a new technique that cuts his costs, the collective or general rate of profit in society – for all capitalists – goes up.Okishio [1961] establishes this theorem under the assumption that the real wage – the price of the commodity basket which workers consume – remains constant. Thus, the theorem isolates the effect of ‘pure’ innovation from any consequent changes in the wage.Actually Okishio’s ‘proof’ is not as strong as you might think and is actually logically inconsistent and so has been junked several times. I don’t have the time to write a full response just yet but will refer you to chapter 7 of Andrew Kliman’s ‘Reclaiming Marx’s Capital’
I watch this channel a lot. It’s interesting in that it gives a different perspective than is on the other channels, but they clearly have there own agenda, don’t know who finances it? Peter Joseph was singing their praises when I saw him on there, which I thought was a little naive…
Another example how production for profit fails to account for real human need, and why state intervention is necessary for preventing the market system from tearing itself apart.I’m half remembering a TV programme I saw last year which said that US airline pilots often have to have a second job as the wages are so low. Don’t know what truth there is in this?There was a book put out in the UK called ‘Murdering the Dead’ which was a compilation of the leftwing-leninist Bordiga’s writing on similar subjects, don’t know if it’s still in print though
Brian wrote:Currently there’s a few members in the UK Chapter on TS 3 also advocating the use of edemocracy in a RBE. They are also into the so called ‘transistional period’ arguments and consequently getting bogged down with a plethora of possibilities. Which means I’m finding its an uphill battle trying to sort out the wheat from the chaff. I could do with some help in this respect so the sooner some of you get the courage to venture onto TS 3 the sooner the discussion can broaden into the aspects of the revolutionary process.If anyone’s interested in this TZM team speak thing more information is here. I might give it a go soon, if I can get a microphone rigged up
dogmatic wrote:I think the state as it currently exists is way too centralised and undemocratic to be used as “transitional”.The SPGB does not advocate using the state to manage a ‘transitional society’. The ‘transition’ begins now, and you’re taking part in it, with people talking about and considering the possibilities of a new kind of society. Once the majority understands and wants this new kind of society we can exploit the ‘Achilles Heel’ of so-called democratic society and instigate the measures needed to transform society in as peaceable a manner as possible.For more read these:http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/pamphlets/whats-wrong-using-parliamenthttp://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/socialist-standard/2010s/2011/no-1287-november-2011/what-wrong-using-parliament
Your probably better of putting your questions about the videos to their maker Brendan Cooney at Kapitalism101.wordpress.com.However, that sentence doesn’t seem quite right. You’re right the goal of the worker is to get money to buy the things they need. However as far as the capitalist is concerned if private labour doesn’t become social labour then nothing of value has been produced and the money invested in production will be lost.The Marxian LTV does not imply that workers should ‘be the owners of ‘their’ social product at all. All it suggests is that the only thing that can expand the total amount of value in the economy is the surplus labour of the wage worker. Some socialists make a fuss about the fact that the worker does not receive the total value of their product, I do not think that this is a problem in itself – under a system of socialised production the worker would not receive the whole of their product either. The problem with capitalism is that is the law of value, the profit motive, and not human need that determines where and in what way resources and human labour power is used up.Not all wage workers produce value. Marx made the distinction between productive and unproductive labour. Most service sector jobs can be classified as ‘unproductive labour’ this is not to mean they are valuable to society but do not produce any new ‘value’ in the sense of the Marxian LTV.
What I’d like to see is some usage statistics for the WSM forum, are these obtainable? Since the list is over 10 years old I think a lot of the subscribers will in fact be defunct email addresses, they certainly aren’t saying much. I have the feeling we are worry about conversations that are taking place in an empty room… With regards to the suggestions above #1 We already have this (though it’s only for members) it’s called SPOPEN.
Gripes about the finer points of economic theory and his over optimism on the possibilities of artificial intellegence aside, he speaks a lot more sense then most.It’s really encouraging to think that stuff like this is being broadcast on a channel which can be viewed in most homes across the UK.
Doesn’t seem like this story was well know in English (at least I can’t find any references to it) until FDTD picked it up. It was originally titled “Rule by Tricks” is from Yu-li-zi by Liu Ji (1311-1375) and is worth reproducing below:
Liu Ji wrote:In the feudal state of Chu an old man survived by keeping monkeys in his service. The people of Chu called him “ju gong” (monkey master).Each morning, the old man would assemble the monkeys in his courtyard, and order the eldest one to lead the others to the mountains to gather fruits from bushes and trees. It was the rule that each monkey had to give one tenth of his collection to the old man. Those who failed to do so would be ruthlessly flogged. All the monkeys suffered bitterly, but dared not complain.One day, a small monkey asked the other monkeys: “Did the old man plant all the fruit trees and bushes?” The others said: “No, they grew naturally.” The small monkey further asked: “Can’t we take the fruits without the old man’s permission?” The others replied: “Yes, we all can.” The small monkey continued: “Then, why should we depend on the old man; why must we all serve him?”Before the small monkey was able to finish his statement, all the monkeys suddenly became enlightened and awakened.On the same night, watching that the old man had fallen asleep, the monkeys tore down all the barricades of the stockade in which they were confined, and destroyed the stockade entirely. They also took the fruits the old man had in storage, brought all with them to the woods, and never returned. The old man finally died of starvation.Yu-li-zi says, “Some men in the world rule their people by tricks and not by righteous principles. Aren’t they just like the monkey master? They are not aware of their muddleheadedness. As soon as their people become enlightened, their tricks no longer work.”Seems to me the WSM forum is a dead donkey. There’s been more conversaion ABOUT the forum than actual discussion on it. No-one really uses yahoo-groups these days and I wouldn’t be that suprised if yahoo pulls the plug soon.I’ve been having better disussions on various facebook groups these days. If this online forum will catch on time will tell, I may make some changes so users can comment on articles without registering, but as far as the WSM yahoo group is concerned I think we should let it die a death, if it hasn’t died already.
Hello Nod,So, over 30 years you have managed to amass a comfortable pile of crumbs. You’ve put yourself to use, the only use that people are able to put themselves in the present social system, and helped increase the size of the cake that is societies capital. But by spending too much time staring at your pile of crumbs you’ve failed to noticed that the cake mix is rotten, that the fumes from the bakery pollute the environment we live in and that the bakery owner grows fat from your efforts.That a life of wage slavery should have such an effect on someone is understandable, even well paid wage workers are always in a precarious position, whether or not they are aware of it. Most slaves, even well fed ones, secretly dreamed of being slave-masters. We seek the end of the system wage slavery.You should really know better.
