Dave B
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i The poor sinner's gospel (Das Evangelium eines armen Sünders; 1845 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Weitling
i There have been some other fairly recent interesting developments. The essenes were communists. That quote from Rosa actually comes from Josephus on the Essenes there is a similar one philo of cira 40AD Thus; It was indeed in this way that the first Christian communities were organized. A contemporary wrote, "“these do not believe in fortunes, but they preach collective property and no one among them possesses more than the others. He who wishes to enter their order is obliged to put his fortune into their common property. That is why there is amoung them neither poverty nor luxury – all possessing all in common like brothers. They do not live in a city apart, but in each they have houses for themselves. If any stangers belonging to their religion come there, they share their property with them, and they can benefit from it as if it their own. Those people, even if previously unknown to each other, welcome one another, and their relations are very friendly. When travelling they carry nothing but a weapon for defence against robbers. In each city they have their steward, who distributes clothing and food to the travellers. Trade does not exist among them. However, if one of the members offers to another some object which he needs, he receives some other objects in exchange. But each can demand what he needs even if he can give nothing in exchange.” https://www.marxists.org/archive/luxemburg/1905/misc/socialism-churches.htm There has long been a ‘dispute’ that the timelines and content of the crucifixtion narrative is garbage and impossible. However it has recently come to light that the essence celebrated Passover on a different date to the ‘orthodox’ Judaism fixing the date from ‘solar calendar’rather than lunar etc. It was in the dead sea schrolls and before that nobody knew about it. That meant that the dates could be different by quite a lot normally the essene Passover date came several days or even weeks after the other. On 30AD the essene date fell one day before the orthodox date. Then when you re look at it everything becomes possible and credible and the version in John doesn’t contradict the synoptic versions. It has been ‘accepted’ by the catholic church in 2007. The traditional site for the last supper. (I know that is a bit wobbly but the had these sites marked out by 240AD as can be seen in contra celsum ) Was in the essene quarter of Jerusalem. Essene quarter has been identified from stuff in Josephus and archaeology . They had special baths and toilets. They weren’t allowed to go for a shit in Jerusalem and had to go outside the city walls etc and the first communist toilet has been located and excavated. But the Essenes were misogynistic and their communism looked monastic and JC certainly wasn’t misogynistic like Paul and was a radical feminist for the times. That amongst other things seems to rule out JC as an essene but it might depend on whether or not the JC movement was picking and mixing their theology and Ideology. Roman of JC was a communist fame didn’t like the idea. On Marx, chemistry, Greek atheists and JC there is a Democritus pun in the gospel of John with JC talking to loose Samaritan women at the well. Karl did his phd thesis on Democritus and includes the truth comes out from the bottom of a deep well thing. That silenced Roman for a few days in the middle of a no Hellenistic philosophy influence on JC.
i Marx et al wasn’t the first to come up with myth theory. We did a history on libcom. It seems the first was French Jacobin type in the 1790’s and there were a couple of other in the early 1800’s. Wietling , ‘friend’ of Marx might have been one of the first to do commumist Christian thing. He wrote an interesting very rare pamphlet in the early 1840’s . The first half of it is pretty shit and boring in a theological sense. But then there was a chapter on abolishing money and stuff like that. Its available online in german and there is a modern English translation under copyright. Wietling himself did his English translation of it after he escaped to the US. There is a copy of it in an American University.
i No not a catholic had a totally non religious background. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bart_D._Ehrman Just because he is easy to read and entertaining lots you tubes you can watch. He also did contemplate JC as a proto Marxist and feminist etc.. Doesn’t like Adam’s pagan Hellinistic influence and is orthodox in thinking Christianity emerged or evolved ideologically spontaneously out of Judaism. A view shared by Roman the author of the book and bollocks in my opinion. Had a 30 post run in with him over it.
i I would like to be persuaded that he didn’t exist. I was told that I would be disappointed by someone well read in the subject if I investigated it thoroughly. I started off from the position that the reported miracles were obviously nonsense and that automatically totally discredited the rest of the content. And two, if he had been doing that kind of stuff, or more seriously, somebody was reported as doing it; it would have got some attention. I hadn’t considered the fact that that kind magic was as common then as now and reports of it wouldn’t have received the kind of attention that Hadrian’s wall,also on the periphery of the roman empire and north of the Watford Gap got (not) in contemporary literature. Actually there is nothing on Pontius Pilate as regards were he came from and were he went. Archaeological evidence is scant; and inscription and maybe a coin or two? There wouldn’t be archaeological evidence what would we expect his lost butty box? With property of Jesus yoke and plough make, messiah and performer of miracles written on it? But in a way that all besides the point pretty much. I think the thesis is true and valid that on the balance of probabilities that JC existed as a historical figure. And it is true that is overall consensus of informed people. To take any other position places us in the same category of prejudiced climate change deniers and compromises our credibility for objectivity a least with informed opinion. We could don’t give a damn in having our credibility harmed with informed intellectual new testament scholars; or Christians. A sentiment I could understand. I can appreciate why the historicity of Jesus could be an ‘inconvenient truth’ just as German funding of the Bolsheviks is for the Leninists. I think the capacity to demonstrate the ability to look at and debate this kind of thing does us no harm. I think there are a couple of billion at least nominal Christians; I guess some of them are working class. And we have a ‘Marxist’pope as well now. I think we need the understanding and superior understanding of their own shit to at least engage with them. That is not particularly difficult as most of them haven’t read it. You become an expert in three hours it is much easier than reading three volumes of capital and 50 of Lenin’s collected works. Anyway it is good fun doing the JC was a communist stuff of Christian forums. I have been kicked of two in less than 20 posts and survived 300+ on revleft even after what I thought would be my swan song by called them red fascists. The Richard carrier site is the go to place for anti historicity stuff ; it is useful to get a handle what contentious and more importantly what isn’t. http://www.richardcarrier.info/jesus.html You can get another typical view on Christian communism from the author of Money, Greed, and God: Why Capitalism Is the Solution and Not the Problem (Harper-One, 2009). http://www.equip.org/article/was-the-early-church-communist/
There is this by the way. Justyn the martry. Quite a serious document by contemporary standards and clearly dateable. It is of interest many other reasons. The First Apology Chapter 1. Address To the Emperor Titus Ælius Adrianus Antoninus Pius Augustus Cæsar, and to his son Verissimus the Philosopher, and to Lucius the Philosopher, the natural son of Cæsar, and the adopted son of Pius, a lover of learning, and to the sacred Senate, with the whole People of the Romans, I, Justin, the son of Priscus and grandson of Bacchius, natives of Flavia Neapolis in Palestine, present this address and petition in behalf of those of all nations who are unjustlyhatedand wantonly abused, myself being one of them. It has commie stuff in it Chapter 14. The demons misrepresent Christian doctrine ……..we who valued above all things the acquisition of wealthand possessions, now bring what we have into a common stock, and communicate to every one in need; And a detailed discussion of another contemporary magician in Rome for which there is no other record. Chapter 26. Magicians not trusted by Christians And, thirdly, because after Christ's ascension into heaven the devils put forward certain men who said that they themselves were gods; and they were not only not persecutedby you, but even deemed worthy of honours. There was a Samaritan, Simon, a native of the village called Gitto, who in the reign of Claudius Cæsar, and in your royal city of Rome, did mighty acts of magic, by virtue of the art of the devils operating in him. He was considered a god, and as a god was honoured by you with a statue, which statuewas erected on the river Tiber, between the two bridges, and bore this inscription, in the language of Rome:— Simoni Deo Sancto, To Simon the holyGod. And almost all the Samaritans, and a few even of other nations, worship him, and acknowledge him as the first god; and a woman, Helena, who went about with him at that time, and had formerly been a prostitute, they say is the first idea generated by him. And a man, Menander, also a Samaritan, of the town Capparetæa, a discipleof Simon, and inspired by devils, we knowto have deceived many while he was in Antiochby his magical art. He persuaded those who adhered to him that they should never die, and even now there are some living who hold this opinion of his. And there is Marcion, a man of Pontus, who is even at this day alive, and teaching his disciplesto believein some other god greater than the Creator. And he, by the aid of the devils, has caused many of every nation to speak blasphemies, and to deny that God is the maker of this universe, and to assert that some other being, greater than He, has done greater works. All who take their opinions from these men, are, as we before said, called Christians; just as also those who do not agree with the philosophersin their doctrines, have yet in common with them the name of philosophersgiven to them. And whether they perpetrate those fabulous and shameful deeds— the upsetting of the lamp, and promiscuous intercourse, and eating humanflesh— we knownot; but we do knowthat they are neither persecutednor put to deathby you, at least on account of their opinions. But I have a treatise against all the heresiesthat have existedalready composed, which, if you wish to read it, I will give you. Chapter 56. The demons still mislead men But the evil spiritswere not satisfied with saying, before Christ's appearance, that those who were said to be sons of Jupiter were born of him; but after He had appeared, and been born among men, and when they learned how He had been foretold by the prophets, and knewthat He should be believedon and looked for by every nation, they again, as was said above, put forward other men, the SamaritansSimon and Menander, who did many mighty works by magic, and deceived many, and still keep them deceived. For even among yourselves, as we said before, Simon was in the royal city Rome in the reign of Claudius Cæsar, and so greatly astonished the sacred senate and people of the Romans, that he was considered a god, and honoured, like the others whom you honouras gods, with a statue. Wherefore we praythat the sacred senate and your people may, along with yourselves, be arbiters of this our memorial, in order that if any one be entangled by that man's doctrines, he may learn the truth, and so be able to escape error; and as for the statue, if you please, destroy it. http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm Marcion of Pontius is well documented figure and focal point major Christian heresy which was that ‘Satan’ or at least a defective demiurge ruled the world with the ruling class as it agents. Which was theological class analysis and justifiable interpretation of the gospel material as in temptation of Christ in Luke. Justin also seems to believe that the emperor circa AD150 has a historical record of Pontius Pilate executing JC. Chapter 35. The Roman state reproduced a new anti Christian Acts of Pilate circa 300AD that was destroyed by the Christians. It is not to much infer from brief references to it, if the title isn’t a bit of giveaway, that it accepted the historicity of JC. Nearly all the early christain intellectuals were, had been or came from a Platonist school or it later variants. They were all binned and their material became top shelve material after about 350AD. Origen was posthumously excommunicated; it appears that he took Myth of Er stuff too seriously. It may have also been a consequence of another famous this time Platonist anti Christian book; again destroyed by the Christians. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porphyry_(philosopher)#Against_the_Christians_.28Adversus_Christianos.29 What was actually in it is highly speculative of course. The later Christians didn’t like Platonism as it suggested and antecedent. It could also run into theological an philosophical problems if one was to over analyse material as in Plato’s republic; whilst attributing to the Christian god total control and approval of the status quo material and socio economic etc. As the following albeit later position took root. The divine right of kings did precede Eg ….“According to Calvin, God not only created the universe, he also rules or governs it, including ruling or governing evil events and actions,”and elsewhere, “The whole of the creation…is subject to his decree and sovereign control…. https://thoughtsofalivingchristian.wordpress.com/2012/08/19/critical-analysis-of-calvins-doctrine-of-providence-and-pastoral-application/ Thus Plato republic book 2 [379b] and always to be spoken ofas such?” “Certainly.” “But further, no good thing is harmful, is it?” “I think not.” “Can what is not harmful harm?” “By no means.” “Can that which does not harm do any evil?” “Not that either.” “But that which does no evil would not be cause of any evil either?” “How could it?” “Once more, is the good beneficent?” “Yes.” “It is the cause, then, of welfare?” “Yes.” “Then the good is not the cause of all things, but of things that are well it the cause—of things that are ill it is blameless.” “Entirely so,” It is a bit strange really as that was the ‘independent’ Marcion position that the Platonist Justin was arguing against! Eg Stephen Fry on God https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5RtDpva7nE I don’t want to get locked into any particular variations on the interpretation of Plato.
Book one CHAP. LXVIII.http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0416.htm
Galatians 1:18-2:10, ‘Paul’ 18 Then after three years I did go up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and stayed with him fifteen days; 19 but I did not see any other apostle except James the Lord’s brother. 20 In what I am writing to you, before God, I do not lie! As Bart Erhman the ‘agnostic’ new testament scholar said to the mythicist Richard Carrier; no response. “If Jesus had not existed you would have thought he brother would have known about it.” The idea that Paul was the founder of Christianity is a position which can be disputed. There is virtually nothing, or nothing really, in any of Pauls material to indicate that he was familiar with any ideological/theological material in the gospel material. In fact it was as politically opposite as the economic classes that they came from. As to people doing magic etc that was quite common and of little interest and not worthy of investigation by intellectuals; albeit according to Origen not so much mixing it with religion thus; From contra Celsum …but he [Celsus] invents something altogether different, admitting somehow the miraculous works done by Jesus, by means of which He induced the multitude to follow Him as the Christ. And yet he desires to throw discredit on them, as being done by help of magic and not by divine power; for he [Celsus] asserts "that he (Jesus), having been brought up as an illegitimate child, and having served for hire in Egypt, and then coming to the knowledge of certain miraculous [….magic tricks…] powers, returned from thence to his own country, and by means of those powers proclaimed himself a god."……… Then we have this which would seem to be an allusion to the feeding of the 3753 etc ………But after this, Celsus, having a suspicion that the great works performed by Jesus, of which we have named a few out of a great number, would be brought forward to view, affects to grant that those statements may be true which are made regarding His cures, or His resurrection, or the feeding of a multitude with a few loaves, from which many fragments remained over, or those other stories which Celsus thinks the disciples have recorded as of a marvellous nature; and he adds: "Well, let us believe that these were actually wrought by you." …….Origen continues;……….But then he immediately compares them to the tricks of jugglers, who profess to do more wonderful things, and to the feats performed by those who have been taught by Egyptians, who in the middle of the market-place, in return for a few obols, will impart the knowledge of their most venerated arts, and will expel demons from men, and dispel diseases, and invoke the souls of heroes, and exhibit expensive banquets, and tables, and dishes, and dainties having no real existence, and who will put in motion, as if alive, what are not really living animals, but which have only the appearance of life.And he asks, "Since, then, these persons can perform such feats, shall we of necessity conclude that they are 'sons of God,' or must we admit that they are the proceedings of wicked men under the influence of an evil spirit?" You see that by these expressions he allows, as it were, the existence of magic……… I think they were talking about hypnotism amongst other things. Justyn Martry from circa 150AD talkings about non supernatural magicians and in particular a contemporary levitator who out did JC; who only managed the feat of walking on water which I suspect is less impressive than walking on air?
I think you are being even more keen to use Lucian's satire as evidence for Jesus's historical existence than the christians themselves:http://lucianofsamosata.info/wiki/doku.php?id=2013:why-lucians-view-of-t…Your link ends with ? Lucian does confirm the Christians and Jesus, but how much of Lucian's view can be taken to be accurate? I think Adonis which is an example you gave originating from 600BC and The exact date when the legend of Adonis became integrated into Greek culture is still disputed. Walter Burkert questions whether Adonis had not from the very beginning come to Greece with Aphrodite.[22]"In Greece," Burkert concludes, "the special function of the Adonis legend is as an opportunity for the unbridled expression of emotion in the strictly circumscribed life of women, in contrast to the rigid order of polisand family with the official women's festivals in honour of Demeter." Both Greek and Near Eastern scholars have questioned this connection.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adonis Falls into a different historical catergory to JC For whom circa 150 AD we have extensive contemporary detailed and allegedly historical literature. The inclusion and overlaying of previous myth stories into the narrative isn’t disputed anymore than the sensational miracle narratives. Even if the contemporary anti christian commentators attributed that to materialistic magic. If, regarding the historical existance of JC, all of the contemporary christian material is pure forgery and all of the anti christian material is anti christians believing in the christian forgeries. And Lucian being gullible in being taken in by the gullible; presumably the last laugh is on him? Then it would be impossible to have any contemporary historical written record for the historicity of JC. And the sophist conclusion is in the predicate?
Well there is a myth. And that is that in the first two centuries anybody thought JC was a myth and not a historical figure. Now you could say that the idea that JC was a myth was in fact present; but just because there is an absence of evidence for it doesn’t mean that is evidence of absence? Adam’s Lucian analysis is disingenuous. Passing of Peregrinus ridicules the Christians for being gullible in being taken in by fakes, free loading on Christian communes. And thus seems to miss a trick then in not also accusing them of being gullible in believing their crucified sophist actually existed? The poor fools have persuaded themselves above all that they are immortal and will live forever, from which it follows that they despise death and many of them willingly undergo imprisonment. Moreover, their first lawgiver taught them that they are all brothers of one another, when once they have sinned by denying the Greek gods, and by worshiping that crucified sophist himself and living according to his laws. So, they despise all things equally and regard them as common property, accepting such teaching without any sort of clear proof. Accordingly, if any quack or trickster, who can press his advantage, comes among them he can acquire great wealth in a very short time by imposing on simple-minded people ‘that crucified sophist’ in the classical Greek is quite unequivocal which more precise a language than English? [It looks like the story of freeloading on Christian communists is plaguarised from another Christian communist document called Didache generally believed to be late first early second century. It has got stuff in it about Christian communists dealing with freeloaders. The funeral pyre stuff in Passing of Peregrinus probably in connected to the myth of Err which has similarities to Christian theology; death decent to hell and resurrection etc Origen a bit of a Christian Platonist talked about the myth of Err in his contra Celsum] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_Er
i Closer to home there are ‘apparently’ no contemporary references in the written record for the existance of Hadrians wall. The earliest ones seem to date from the late 4thand early 5thcentury eg; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustan_History#The_dating_problem there are two anti Christian second century texts that assert jesus as a historical figure. The passing of peregrinus by Lucian circa 170AD which describes Christians, in a derogatory tone, as communists and true doctrine by Celsus of a similar date. Celsus describes JC as magician and con merchant of the david blaine type who learned how to do that kind of stuff whilst economic migrant or wage slave in Egypt and that his mother was unmarried fornicator who span yarn as part of her day job. He was according to Celsus the product of a laison with a roman soldier as in the Life of Brian which is where they got it from. That story was a continuing part of anti Christian Jewish material. He was also accused of supernatural ‘black’ magic or sorcery which falls into a separate catergory. Celsus even describes his physical appearance as short and having some kind of physical deformity. One of earliest dateable christain texts is as below; This passage clearly places Barnabas after the destruction of the Second Temple in AD 70. But it also places Barnabas before the Bar Kochba Revoltof AD 132, after which there could have been no hope that the Romans would help to rebuild the temple. The document must come from the period between the two revolts. The place of origin remains an open question, although the Greek-speaking Eastern Mediterranean appears most probable https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistle_of_Barnabas#Origin which includes; Thou shalt communicate [in this context share ] in all things with thy neighbour; thou shalt not call things thine own; for if ye are partakers in common of things which are incorruptible, how much more [should you be] of those things which are corruptible! he means, "to such men as know not how to procure food for themselves by labour and sweat, but seize on that of others in their iniquity, and although wearing an aspect of simplicity, are on the watch to plunder others."
pWell then is Meel2 holding something back? As we can do microbial contents of the gut etc etc and primitive Hadza communism in one go? http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qnx3/episodes/player There is also research going on about sugar intakes and flavanoid composition of foods etc. Went to a work related lecture on research on it recently as she was using the same sugar analysis method that I use at work that is regarded as a bit eccentric. Ion exchange HPLC with pulsed amperometric detection. It is great but hard work; there is a witchcraft like art to it which pisses most people off. Her research is very, very new and current. Flavaniod type things are especially prevalent in normal high sugar containing foods like fruit juice that contains a lot. They can act as digestive enzyme inhibitors and of sugar uptake in the gut, or slows it down. They don’t fully understand it yet. Well that is what they are looking at anyway. But with real fruit juice you don’t seem to get the fast sugar hit that is generally regarded as a problem re the development of diabetes. Subjective or objective. Mars bars and biscuits don’t have flavanoids in them. Connected to this is the following that has done the run around in my fruit juice industry. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naringin Thus as I think it goes they calculated drug doses on uptake and there is always an assumption that some of the drug will get digested before in enters the system. I seem remember there is a problem in particular with anti chloresterol drugs? Drink to much grapefruit juice, the drug doesn’t get broken down in the gut and you overdose? These anti cholesterol drugs are real kick ass serious material when you look at what they do. There is a rumour mill that they are contributing to dementia and it has legs when you look at how they work and the importance fat wiring insulation in the brain. The chloresterol producing pharmaceutical industry , which makes fortunes out of it, obviously want to bury that kind of stuff. The Medical practitioners want us to live long on pizza’s and die ‘cabbages’. And don’t want to spook people out of a heart disease wonder cure. It is a delicate line given the rubella whooping vaccine versus autism scare. There also seems to be endorphin releases and highs on sugar consumption hits. I am a sugar junky myself and just don’t have it in house as a packet of biscuits lasts 10 minutes. Juice just doesn’t have the same affect even if it something like pineapple that can come it at 14%. They had a problem raising motherless rhino’s as there were a lot; they just died when they got onto a normal diet. Mixing in a bit of rhino pooh into the milk or whatever seemed to solve the problem.
p Off the top of my head? If productivity increased say by 10% per anum you would expect the labour value of products to decrease by 10%. However is paper money was actually inflating at 10% you would see no paper money fall in prices. If wages denominated in paper money stayed the same then you see nothing changing at all and no evidence anywhere of any changes in prices. What would be happening would be the value benefits in increase in productivity would be going to either or both to directly the manufacturing capitalist class in increase rate of surplus value and offsetting to some degree the fall in the rate of profit etc. Or to the owners of the paper money mines. Despite the problems with the metric of Gross domestic product and what it means. You might be able to assess the likelihood of this thesis by at least a trend analysis of wages as a % of GDP falling. Which it appears to be doing. And static living standards on a use value metric.
ll I think with this Corbynite thing it is tempting to make the analysis of here we go again back to the 1970’s labour party thing again etc. However I don’t think we, and the working class in general, as far as understanding how capitalism works is in the same position as the 1970’s. Just for starters the word capitalism itself was not in the mainstream even in the early 1980’s. I am sure I never heard the word in the mainstream media then; it would be interesting to do a literature search I think on how many times the word was used in the mainstream media press around then. Without wanting too much to sound like the working class hero kind of stuff. My father in the 1970’s, who was a bastard, was dyed in the wool left labour party person and a very active trade unionists and shop steward etc. However he didn’t know what capitalism was he just hated the rich bastard tories and wanted to strike his way towards nirvana. He was also a bit of a labour aristocracy worker being at the top of that tree being an electrical engineer. Fitters or spanner monkeys were lower down in the pecking order and deserved to earn less and nothing would get him agitated more than the erosion of that pay differential. Shop floor workers and machine operators were dross and beneath contempt. I mention it as I am just slowly reading through Paul Mason’s book at lunch time at work 5 pages at a time. He talked briefly about his experience at a metal pressing shop on the river Mersey and how the engineers would look down their noses at the shop floor workers. When I started again working in a factory in the mid 1980’s it was still there and the engineers were still split into the ‘fitters’ and ‘electricians’. In the same place now they are fused and there are just engineers and I don’t think they are as shitty as they used to be. In 1979 at a tender age, yet thinking myself a bit of a clever bod, I came across the labour theory of value and capitalism from a ex CPGB and Irish nationalist grunt on the shop floor in another factory. I had never heard anything like it before as it wasn’t around like it is now even in the rightwing press. I was a bit pissed off because he didn’t have a O’level but was running rings around me. Such material as below wasn’t there. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/04/22/heres-an-unlikely-bestseller-a-700-page-book-on-21st-century-economics/?utm_term=.1d42152a1ab2 Corbynism is just politicised trade union consciousness and getting the best deal out of capitalism; but I think many of them now understand that there are brick walls as to how far you can take it.
