Bijou Drains
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L Bird – That is what 'talk of consciousness' implies – that you will reveal your social consciousness, which you employ when you create your object.Going back to my original question, which you so noticeably avoided, "since materialsits see any talk of consciousness as idealism", I'll ask you to explain again, considering I have just spent the last half our "talking of consciousness" how can it be that I see talking of consciousness as idealism, I don't. Please therefore back up your sweeping statementL Bird – "You think Marx's 'theory and practice' amounts to 'theory' – you said so, earlier." please tell me when, which by the way you can't, because I didn't, yet another example of speciousness
Again L Bird, misrepresentation and sophism. There is nothing in my statement to back up your claim that I am arguing for "passive reflection", as illustrated by my statement that theory is produced by"human consciousness and as such reflects all of the various influences, specific and general, human experience brings with it." As such theory, understanding, existence, experience, knowledge, etc. begins from the moment we are conceived. We develop mental representations of the experiences, not merely through cognition, but through feeling, instinct, language, number, etc. creating what Kelly, Beck, Piaget, etc would describe as schema. At any moment in time our "intelligence" can be described in terms of our developing accommodations and perceptions, none of which are final. This does not equate with passive reflection.Humans do create their own reality, by the way, where yours came from is anybody's guess, however this reality cannot be as you state "objective" that is:"based on real facts, and not based on personal beliefs or feelings" or ""dealing with things external to the mind rather than with thoughts or feelings"It must by definition, actually by your definition, by subjective.You then go on to leap to the conclusion, that through this process of the creation of our "objective organic nature", (which as stated must by definition actually be subjective), humans create matter! I do create matter, but afterwards I usually wipe my arse and flush it away, I suggest you might do the same with the shit you produce.
"Since materialists see any talk of 'consciousness' as idealism' is a direct quote from L Bird. Very simple task for you L Bird, now back that statement up without any of the usual waffling, deviation, obfuscation, etc. you usually use.I would describe myself as a Materialist and I do not see "any talk of consciousness as idealism". That would be a ridiculous statement, not only that, I have never come across any other member of the SPGB in pushing 35 years of membership of the party state any thing of the kind. The statement is however typical of the specious arguments you put forward.
The bit that L Bird seems unable to comprehend is that the understanding (i.e.. the model, in this case the theoretical model of gravity) is produced by human consciousness and as such reflects all of the various influences, specific and general, human experience brings with it. HOWEVER that model or view or theory etc. created as it is by human consciousness is ultimately based on a reality processed by the individual, the group, the social class, etc. We can alter our perception of reality, we can alter our understanding of reality, what we cannot change by thought alone, is the reality itself. What L Bird appears to be suggesting is that matter only exists when observed by a human, whereas the truth is that human perception of reality only exists when humans perceive reality. In addition to this L Bird seems to suggest that the only factor in human perception is social Cass, whereas this is far from the case, for instance does reality change because an individual with schizophrenia observes it. In terms of understanding the basis of human cognitive development he may be better served reading Bowlby and Vygotsky!
The Spanish Inquisition wrote that ""Capitalism doesn't aim to meet human needs; it meets human desires"Actually that's not true, The only aim of any capitalist concern is to make profit. If in making that profit they meet human need and or desire, so be it, if in making that profit it meets no human need or desire again that is immaterial. The PPI "scandal" is an example of a capitalist enterprise which did not wish to meet a human need or desire, the marketing of thalidomide at pregnant women another, there are so many more. Just because a text book on an MBA states something, it does not make it true.
I think you are clutching at straws my friend. If that sounds efficient to you, perhaps you need to get out into the real world of work. what I have spoken about doesn't include the returns to Companies House, the hours spent with accountants, the tax returns, the audit trail for every penny spent, etc. etc. Not only that but as a small business time is spent by me and others on insurance, banking, invoicing, factoring, etc etc. All of those people could be freed to use their talents to do something useful. The current system of society wastes human and natural resources on an huge scale. Given those resources to add to the productive capacity we could easily meet the needs and desires of humanity.
Oh by the way, another example. On Christmas Day this year I was involved with a project to provide a Christmas Day event for people in our community who were lonely and isolated on Christmas Day. We were inundated with people who wanted to volunteer to undertake "unpleasant tasks", including preparing food prior to the day, giving up their day to provide transport, wash dishes, take out the rubbish, etc. etc. etc. We used a local community centre, run by volunteers. We actually had to turn down further volunteers in mid October, because we had nothing left for them to do. This is just one example, there are thousands of others, trades union workers, Allotment Societies, Community Centres, WRVS, St John's, the Red Cross, the response of people in the recent floods, etc. etc. I would suggest that even you , "the Spanish Inquisition" are giving your time free to whatever political movement you really align yourself to, not on the basis of personal gain, but rather in the belief (in my view, mistaken) that what you do is in the common good.Your presence here actually proves our point, you're are not here on the basis of self interest, but in the interest of what you genuinely believe is the common good!!!! I would suggest that a good move forward for you would be to be to really "think outside of the box" set aside your assumptions about society, set aside your limited perspectives. I say this not in the spirit of antagonism, but rather from the point of view of another human who is genuinely interested in how we make ensure the best for ourselves and the rest of humanity. Give it some genuine thought, you may surprise yourself, you say that you are at University, part of the process of University is rethinking the viewpoints you have held and thinking anew. I hope you have the intellectual curiosity and honesty to consider our views and that you might join us in the real Socialist movement in our work that can set free the real creative resources of humanity.Yours for Socialism Tim
Perhaps I can relate this to my Current Work. I spend a great deal of my work time teaching and training Foster carers. The work of Foster Carers is incredibly complex and complicated, Most of the foster carers I work with, and in this country there are something like 60,000 foster carers, receive less in expenses than they spend on the children. Despite this they are often fantastically well motivated, work incredibly hard and many of them seek out in their own time professional qualifications. This, is in my opinion, a fantastic example of a high number of people who carry out extremely difficult work, motivated entirely by the need to meet the needs of society and others.Sadly, other elements of my work illustrate the ridiculous waste that capitalism produces. Because much of the training I deliver is publicly funded, I would estimate that up to 30% of my work is not teaching foster carers, which I love and enjoy, but rather dealing with the administration of the finance. Not only that but the funding bodies employ literally 1,000s of staff managing the finance and the payments. The funding guidance runs to hundreds of pages and the amount of time staff spend debating various aspects of the funding guidance runs into 1,000 of hours..Given a Socialist society, I would be delighted to spend my life teaching those working with troubled children what ever I can to do their work more effectively, and I'm sure the vast majority of the 60,000 foster cares I work with would be delighted to get on with their chosen work, without the extra task of filling in expenses claims, mileage sheets, tax returns, etc.etc. etc, Supporters of capitalism often cite the efficiency of this capitalism, like much of the horse shit they come up with, this is just another lie.
Dear ModeratorApologies. On re-reading my post, it may come across that I was trying to be disingenuous with my comments. In retrospect, using words like: low self esteem, friendless and bellend,. could be interpreted in a different way than I intended, if this is the case, please accept my withdrawal of those terms. So just to be clear, it is not my view that L Bird is a friendless, bellend who suffers from problems associated with low self esteem. I hope that clarifies the matter,.
Unfortunately, my feathered friend, your elite view of yourself reveals itself so readily, sadly it is just as easy to see your overwhelming need for intellectual recognition. This does make me wonder where your deep seated sense of low self esteem comes from, your apparent need to be recognised as an all conquering genius. You need to know that we are here to help you. We feel your pain, it's ok to share it with us we understand. Was it your friendless childhood, the family who kept moving without telling you? Getting your packed lunch given to you wrapped in a road map? The family pretending that they only spoke Swedish, just to avoid talking to you? it must have hurt so much.I can imagine you, sitting with your imaginary friend Mr Bucket, him telling you how clever you are. Then even Mr Bucket got pissed off and hung himself.But you need to know, that's all behind you, you're amongst friends here. Me, Vin, YMS, ALB, etc. we might seem like we think you're a bit of a bellend, but honestly, we think you're really, really, clever. Honestly, cross my heart and hope to die. So snuggle down tonight, safe I the knowledge that after all these years you were right, you're dead clever, honest.Much loveTim
Vin, I think it was a friendly jest from Adam, following your comments on another thread. I'm sure it wasn't meant to offend
L Bland wrote "The SPGB intends to……………Keep the production of ideas in the hands of a minority" – So the production of ideas, in Bland's opinion must currently be in the hands of a minority. so if the production of ideas is controlled by the "educated elite" how then can the production of ideas be taken from them? If only they produce ideas, which of them produced the idea of Socialism and why didn't they keep it to themselves?Bland clearly considers himself to have, quote the confidence, ability, intelligence and interest to produce his own ideas, is he therefore part of the minority who produce ideas. If he isn't then how did he produce the ideas he has. Happily the reality is somewhat different. Workers all over the globe have the confidence, ability, intelligence and interest to develop their own ideas, without the elitist help of our latter day Lenin, L Bird.
L Bird – You might be interested in the Walsby Society, founded by the late George Walford. They used to send around the incredibly turgid "ideological Commentary" to any one on the Socialist Standard contact list in the 80s and 90s. when Walford died he left some money to the SPGB and also set money aside for the George Walford International Essay Prize (I shit you not). The prize is £3,500 to spend on the college course of the winner's choice. The subject is Systematic Ideology and from reading through the essays it seems that pseudo-intellectual sophistry is the name of the game. You may want to enter, although when it comes to pseudo-intellectual sophistry you may be over qualified.Anyway here is a link -http://gwiep.net/wp/to be fair, Walford did come up with one reasonably funny joke, which was – A Martian lands in Clapham High Street, knocks on the door of number 52 and says "take me to your leader"
Robbo 203 wrote
“If you are going to argue that socialism is purely a matter of our own “self interests”.then this leads to directly into the kind of thinking that lay behind Adam Smith’s model of the invisible hand of the market. You might as well give up propagatng socialism and focus on becoming a rich capitalist.”The point is that if we ALL could become rich capitalists, then this would be the best route forward. The propaganda of capitalism puts forward the view that if we all tried hard enough we could ALL be Bill Gates. However we cannot just choose to become rich capitalists, to propose this is as ridiculous as suggesting that we choose to be member of the working class. The point is being born between the right pair of thighs is not a matter of choice.
The cold facts are that socialism is in the self interest of the majority, because the majority, no matter how hard we try cannot all be Bill Gates.
Also Vin, I think Prozac and Whiskey make the perfect combination, it’s the only way to survive 40 years of disappointment at Joker Park/Stade de Merde or Sid James Park
British Culture -Fish and Chips – JewishSt George – TurkishThe Royal family – GermanRock and Roll – African AmericanBeer – EgyptianTea drinking – ChineseNumerals – Hindu ArabicScript – LatinLanguage – Saxon, Celtic, French, Germanic, Greek, Latin, etc. etc. etc.Looking back on the history of the British Isles is looking back on a history of population movement, integration and cross fertilization of ideas. The idea of a single culture, held in aspic, whether that is white working class culture or any other culture is ridiculous. As a white working class Geordie, I have seen my culture change profoundly in the last 50 years; that in an area without high levels of immigration. Poss tubs, leek clubs, coop dividend, nit nurses, drinking Fed Special, proggy mats, whippets, etc. etc.Society is constantly changing, constantly adapting, constantly integrating, constantly innovating and a big part of that process has been due to multi cultural cross fertilization. No doubt the same would be the case in a Socialist Society.
