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Is it just me, but considering we have postings about various movements and how we should reach out to them, is it not time that two organisations who both hold to the D of P looked for some kind of common ground. It's not like both organisations are bursting at the seams

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moderator1 wrote:

lindanesocialist wrote:

The document should be available from a request from any member of the public. The IC are in contevention yet again, of our basic priciples. Vin has been refused a copy by the Internet Committee

The IC are a sub-committee of the EC and as such we have to abide by our Terms of Reference which stipulate we report to the EC.  With the report now in the hands of the EC its down to them to consider all requests for it to be released to the public domain – not the IC.

At what point did this party start having secret reports, meetings etc? If this report is discussed as part of the EC meeting its contents as a matter of principle should be available to all members of the party to scrutinise and then make judgments as to whether the EC have acted accordingly. The IC terms of reference do stipulate that the IC report to the EC, they do NOT however, as far as I can see stipulate that any such report should only be made available to the party at large on the say so of the EC. If Mod 1 can quote me chapter and verse from the Terms of Reference that states that this is so I would be very happy to see it.

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alanjjohnstone wrote:

From friends' accounts the dirtiest players were either police or prison officers teams.

Quote:

I would prefer an evening in the local with a few pints, some rum chasers a couple of meat pies and a game of darts. Each to their own

In general, food production will be a social decision, not personal choice.Your beer will be from a local micro brewery, your rum locally made moonshine and your meat pies will be from some sort of slaughtered animal reared locally on a small-scale rather than produced on some industrialised livestock farm and then processed in a meat-processing factory. Of course, we are as socialists judgmental, Tim. It is an attribute we acquire as socialists, it comes with the territory…to look at society and be critical of it and propose improvements to it. Okay in capitalism that for you is acceptable but now you question its validity within socialist society, that people will not continue to be critical of our cultures and will not continue to advocate for it to adapt and evolve for the better. Here in Thailand there is a version of keepy-uppy. Acrobatic skills with a ball that you rarely see in football these days https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sepak_takraw

Quite funny that you say that production will be a social decision not a personal choice and then list what appears to be your personal choice for micro brewery ale, hooch and artisan pies. I hadn't realised that you had been tasked with writing the blueprint for Socialism, I must have missed that conference report. As I said earlier it is interesting how those who demand that we should be free to go back to small scale artisan production don't seem to be able to conceive that in a socialist society with DEMOCRATIC PRODUCTION it is conceivable that the majority may prefer mass produced food stuffs and keg fizz!In terms of being judgmental, I think you confuse making judgments and having an analytical approach to being judge mental in the sense of having an opinion on the behaviour and choices of others that are not in accordance with your own. As an example, and this may appall you, I would much rather see a hard crunching but fair, Dave Mackay style tackle than a game of keepie up.

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Nothing on my computer Linda, that doesn't mean to say that it isnt something on the forum

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what is the nature of the virus Linda?

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ALB wrote:

Actually it presumes they are men, which has not always been the case

Good point, well made, you certainly have my …… in your hands

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alanjjohnstone wrote:

Not sure why this was off-topic. The article i linked to did indeed question scientist's motivations in their analyses and studies of hunter-gatherer societies…that they had ideological reasons for their findings and we should be suspect of certain claims…  If LBird wished to remind the thread of his previous assertions supporting his earlier observations  i see nothing wrong with that.If he then went on with other posts to de-rail the thread then that is a different situation. To presume he would do because of past record is akin to giving a dog a bad name and pre-judging a contributor. …i'd rather wait til the person commits a crime before we chose to read someone's mind and read into intentions…As his comment was addressed to me , i noted it but was not prepared to enter debate about it because i was only providing some information for others. and not seeking an exchange since i am busy elsewhere on the forum

It wasn't L Bird's comment that was removed, but rather my comment which quoted his comment.I posted  "nurse, nurse he's out of bed again" which was removed. On reflection, perhaps it was fair to remove my comment, there was no malice intended, but it was slightly childish. (not to say I wasn't quite pleased and amused by what I'd written)

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alanjjohnstone wrote:

I have always considered tattooing to be a form of self-harm rather than an art-form, YMS, particular when performed on visible parts of the body. Are we arguing ,Tim, that socialist society will approve of binge-drinking, bad diets, licientiousness and lewdness, outdoor pursuits without training. Or will they be considered social problems where society will try collectively to minimalise the detrimental effect it has upon communities. How? Peer-group pressure, perhaps. Do we approve of hill walkers who do not provide a timetable and itinerary? Maybe mountain rescue teams will refuse to offer assistance when recklessness is part of the cause. Will the RNLI decide idiots should be left at sea to flounder? Suicide is a voluntary act, shall we not try to mitigate it with various interventions but fully permit in certain cases voluntary euthanasia. Will there be a socialist police …a morality police…vigilantes…Always gets the discussion going in the pub.

By saying that people will be free to play dangerous sports, get their faces tattooed eat bad diets, etc. etc does not mean that  a socialist society approves of such things, nor does it mean it should disapprove. The point is that people in a socialist society should be free to do what they want to as long as it does not impact on the lives of others too much. Approval or disapproval is not an issue, nor would or should it be it be required.As to the medical profession's input, we regularly played against the Newcastle University Medic's team and the Royal victoria Infirmary team, I think their would be enough volunteers to deal with the exagerated medical problems presented by local football teams.I am always a bit suprised by the judgemental attitude (not saying any members in particular) of what I would describe as the "knit your own lentil stew" current in the socialist movement. I think in a Socialist societies those who want to spend their time in a mongolian yurt, eating braised tofu with mung bean salad, whilst listening to Fijian nose flute music, before an exctiing evening watching speed chess should be free to do so, personally I'd rather eat my own scrotum. I would prefer an evening in the local with a few pints, some rum chasers a couple of meat pies and a game of darts. Each to their own

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moderator1 wrote:

Young Master Smeet wrote:

There is a real question as to whether a member can be permantly banned from online party fora.  Members here have experessed disagreement with placing members under moderation (which I do favour, and believe the EC or Moderators could do) since that allows members to express themselves still.  But, realistically, if we're saying, as we would be wwere a member to be excluded from a party forum, that they cannot behave themselves sufficiently to do so, then really we should eb expelling that person from the party outright, not creating a second class member.If so, as per recent party discussions, the matter should be referred to the member's branch, and not the EC, per rule 29.

Rule 29 wrote:

29. Charges against any member shall be submitted in writing to the Branch and a copy supplied to the member accused who shall be allowed 14 days to enter the defence.

if the branch declines to act, there may be a case for enacting rule 31

rule 31 wrote:

The EC shall forthwith submit particulars of the charge to all Branches and at the same time communicate the charges in writing to the accused and enclose a copy of this rule. Branches shall hold at least one specially summoned meeting to discuss the charge. The Delegates at the next Delegate Meeting or Annual Conference shall hear the case of the EC and of the accused; after which no further circulation of arguments for or against the charge may take place. The Delegates shall submit their findings to a Party Poll and the result of the Party Poll shall apply as from the date of suspension. No parties to the charge or dispute shall be allowed to sit as Delegates or Chair at Conference, ADM or any EC meeting where the case is being reviewed.

  A permanent ban (or even a sustained ban) is a different kettle of fish to a temporary "go calm yourself down" ban.

Problem is that the IC, or any other sub-committee of the EC, cannot under the rules make charges against a member.  Individual members – from any Branch can make a case – under Rule 29  and forward the charge to the Branch for them to deal with but not a sub-committee.

I fail to see how that is a problem. The role of committees is not a policing role, but to carry on the work of that committee as per the terms of reference for that committee. Just like the role of moderators is to moderate, not join in discussion under the auspices of being a moderator

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John Oswald wrote:

"Sagan points out an amusing fact: that, like chimps, the Romans and the Hebrews cemented political alliances by holding one another`s testicles." – "It's how arguments in the Socialist Standard Editorial Committee are settled too. Fact"I`ve suspected that for some time!

that pre supposes that the Editorial Committee have balls

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alanjjohnstone wrote:

 As for playing regularly into your forties, Tim, can i ask how many operations you have had on your knees and if you personally haven't, how many of your team-mates you know, did have ? So what about the social cost of some sports? How much health resources should be devoted to it

Quote:

Even if the majority disapprove, is it their right to stop the sport freely enjoyed by others if it harms no one but the participants?

. A nursing friend told me once that A/E was full of patients on the Sunday from the games played on the Saturday…hyped up and boozed up after the game the extent of their injuries didn't come apparent until after they sobered up and woke up next day

My knees are fine, despite the fact that I broke a leg on three occasions during my time playing football, perhaps it was the fact that I was lucky that the three broken legs were opponents legs not mine. To be fair, although I played the marority of games as a centre half, I was only ever booked once, and on the three occasions mentioned above each one was where an opponent was trying to "do" me.If we are going to use the social costs of sport to stop them taking place under socialism are we also going to do the same around alcohol, tobbacco, food consumption, unprotected sex, mountain climbing, canoeing, skin diving, etc. Is this ban goign to be imposed by the "Socialist Police" or are there just going to be disapproving looks from the enlightened.

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Young Master Smeet wrote:

There is a real question as to whether a member can be permantly banned from online party fora.  Members here have experessed disagreement with placing members under moderation (which I do favour, and believe the EC or Moderators could do) since that allows members to express themselves still.  But, realistically, if we're saying, as we would be wwere a member to be excluded from a party forum, that they cannot behave themselves sufficiently to do so, then really we should eb expelling that person from the party outright, not creating a second class member.If so, as per recent party discussions, the matter should be referred to the member's branch, and not the EC, per rule 29.

Rule 29 wrote:

29. Charges against any member shall be submitted in writing to the Branch and a copy supplied to the member accused who shall be allowed 14 days to enter the defence.

if the branch declines to act, there may be a case for enacting rule 31

rule 31 wrote:

The EC shall forthwith submit particulars of the charge to all Branches and at the same time communicate the charges in writing to the accused and enclose a copy of this rule. Branches shall hold at least one specially summoned meeting to discuss the charge. The Delegates at the next Delegate Meeting or Annual Conference shall hear the case of the EC and of the accused; after which no further circulation of arguments for or against the charge may take place. The Delegates shall submit their findings to a Party Poll and the result of the Party Poll shall apply as from the date of suspension. No parties to the charge or dispute shall be allowed to sit as Delegates or Chair at Conference, ADM or any EC meeting where the case is being reviewed.

  A permanent ban (or even a sustained ban) is a different kettle of fish to a temporary "go calm yourself down" ban.

I  have got to say I fully agree with your analysis. A sine die exclusion from party fora, also has furhter implications when the person excluded is a Branch Secretary and when the Branch in question organises primarily through the party's internet presence! If we have an on line meeting of the Branch to discuss Cde Marratty's ban from the forum, how can cde Marratty be included in that discussion. In my opinion there has to be a way to resolve this dispute in a comradely and progressive way. It also to my mind highlights the need to examine how our internal democratic processes will need to adapt appropriately to the use of information technology.

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I played local non league football in the Newcastle and district leagues until I was well into my forties, I'm not sure about sport or entertainment, but self harm probably fits the description quite well. Given a chance I'd be there again in a heart beat. A socialism without sport is unthinkable to me. A sport without commercial presides sounds like my idea of heaven. Even if the majority disapprove, is it their right to stop the sport freely enjoyed by others if it harms no one but the participants?The thread reminded me of one of the most bizarre incidents that happened at a football match. We had just played and narrowly beaten one of the biggest bunch of nutters in our league and their captain put his head through the door and told us "someone" had just smashed up one of our cars. The look on his face when we told him that we'd all come on the bus! They'd smashed up their own goalies car!

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DJP wrote:

alanjjohnstone wrote:

Quote:

It's up to them to develop their ideas.

 By implication then, the working class doesn't need a socialist party to educate, agitate and organise.

Well socialist ideas certainly do not originate with the SPGB, there's nothing that the SPGB says that others have not thought of independently. I think it's not a case of "making socialists" but of finding socialists, or arranging things so that socialists can find us.

If that is your view, you are within your right to work for socialism in whatever way you choose, what I find odd is that you seem to find it hard to recognise that others want to carry out different kind of activities and appear to be intent on blocking or criticising them for doing so. If you want to sit in your ivory tower, like some Victorian maiden spraying the kind of perfume on that you think will attract the working class to you, off you go, but please have the courtesy to respect others who want to do it differently.

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Hi LindaThat link only takes me to a BT site?

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