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On several occasions I have wandered up to the callow youths selling which ever Trotskyist rag is in fashion at the local universities and asked them about their view of the Cuban regime. The predictable response is the usual cut and paste collection of "heroic stand against US imperialism", "solidarity with the Cuban revolution", etc.When asked about the way Castro gave a hero's welcome to Ramon Mercader, they generally become a little bit confused, unsure about who I'm referring to.When it is explained that Ramon was the guy who restyled old Leon's fringe with an ice pick they generally become very confused.I had one of them (presumably one of the leading cadre) tell me I was "a liar, a fucking liar" and he then ran around in a frenzy telling the rest of "the comrades" that they couldn't speak to me and saying words to the effect that I was a counter-revolutionary tapeworm in the pay of the CIA. Strange buggers these Trotskyists 

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robbo203 wrote:

Thanks Dave ,  Thats a very useful start indeed.  If you have any other links you can post here that would be great, I guess the really tricky bit is to estimate the amount of  labour that is indirectly socially useless.  Banks for example are housed in buildings but we normally think of the construction industry as being socially useful,  In this instance part of the industry is devoted to provisioning a socially useless activity – banking.  The same argument applies to utilities and infrastructure Talking of the construction industry we should not overlook the truly monumental waste involved in empty homes.  In Europe there are 11 million empty homes (and 4 million homeless people). In America the figure is 18 million, In China it is a staggering 60 million.  And even this is only the tip of the iceberg.  It does not taking into account the numerous half completed projects (which are quite a common sight here in Spain) , not to mention all those empty offices shops, warehouses and factories  I think the figure of just over half the workforce being involved in socially useless labour is about right

Also: Sales and marketing staff, auditors, advertising industry, those manufacturing goods for use in the banking industry (cheque books, paper for bank statements, money, tbose irritating little fucking pens, etc.), management consultants, people involved in the education and training of all of the people mentioned above, people involved in the production of tickets, ticket machines, ticket barriers, bloody ticket inspectors, miners who dig gold out of a hole in South Africa, transport workers who transport it to another hole in the ground (Fort Worth and other bullion holding centre), armed guards watch the gold in its  new hole in the ground to make sure it stays there, the people who do exactly the same for diamonds, rubies, emeralds, etc. estate agents, all of the staff at the national lottery, charity fund raisers, job centre workers, people administering pensions and state benefits, tax officials, tax consultants, actors hawking their wares on TV ads cajoling us into buying the tawdry tat the supermarkets label as "special",  Noel friggin Edmonds, the royal family, the large number of people employed by the royal household ensuring the useless gits don't die from being unable to do the simplest tasks like making a meal for themselves, bookmakers, the gambling "industry", Alan  Bastard Sugar, everyone involved in the X factor, burglar alarm manufacturers and installers, PPI sales people, about 80% of the poor sods who work in call centres, bar staff (in socialism we'll put the pumps the other way round so you can help yourself), financial fraudsters, thieves… the list goes on and on.

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jondwhite wrote:

One of the most important original pamphlets the party ever produced was 'Socialism' and one of the editions (possibly from 1925) included an illustrated cover picturing a lady wearing a sash that read 'science'. A picture has just been published online herehttp://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/S-P-G-B-Socialism-Pamphlet-Socialist-Party-of-Great-Britain-c-1925-Socialist-/142184957266?hash=item211ae24552:g:ATAAAOSwHMJYMXQRhttp://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/ATAAAOSwHMJYMXQR/s-l1600.jpg

oh crap, don't mention science, you'll wake the L Bird up!!!(for those of you who don't know the L Bird is a semi mythical creature who lives in a strange land called Votopia.The L Bird is a very sensitive soul who has a unique reaction to the word science. When he hears that word he rises from his nest of half digested copies of the Works of Frederick Engels and gets himself into a right old lather, flapping his crusty old wings about, calling for votes on the existence of custard, saying that he and only he could decide what the future is going to look like and usually ending it all by everyone a Leninists and generally being a complete pain in the hoop.Thankfully the L Bird has been quietly brooding in his nest for a little while, he usually sits there dormant for a short period of time after all of the questions he refuses to answer have mounted up to the point where he feels a complete tool. But be careful, it doesn't take much for the L Bird to be wakened from his slumbers, take his beak out of his arse and start the whole process off again.strangely the L Bird seems to have some kind of magic amulet that protects him from the attentions of the legendary all powerful wizards called "The Mods"Round our way parents used to chide their children by telling them that if they didn't settle offf to sleep they'd summon up the L Bird who would send the off to the land of nod with one majestic sweep of his ludicrous ideas.)

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JamesH81 wrote:

 my mother is buying me this…. -Marxian Economics and Globalization (Oriya) Paperback – 2009 by Adam Buick (Author), Binay Sarkar (Author) https://www.amazon.co.uk/Marxian-Economics-Globalization-Adam-Buick/dp/819025295Xand….State Capitalism: The Wages System under New Management Paperback – 10 Oct 1986 by Adam Buick (Author), John Crump (Contributor) https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0333367766/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=3J8P1VOEL30HJ&coliid=I1QVL2IDR1C8I3for my birthdayyours for socialismjames h 

happy birthday James. My old Mam bought me the 3 volumes of capital for my 21st Birthday. Good luck!YFSTim

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LBird wrote:

Tim Kilgallon wrote:

So tell me L Bird, in the "communist society" you propose, we have a world wide vote on a scientific theory. For arguments sake let's take the theory of what causes thunder.The vote are cast and the "truth" is decided along the lines of discharge of electrons between clouds, etc. However I'm still of the opinion that it's caused by a big guy in the sky with a hammer called Thor.What happens to me? Am I carted off to a idealist-materialist reeducation camp to ensure I acknowledge "the truth". Also how long do I have to wait before we can have another vote?

Tim, stay out of it – I can't take your inability to discuss sensibly. I'll only end up getting banned, because I'll talk to you like one talks to a dimwit, and I shouldn't treat you like that, so I won't reply to your stupidities any further.If you don't like it, complain to the mods.

Presumably a dimwit like me gets an equal vote on string theory to a genius like L Bird?

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LBird wrote:

Tim Kilgallon wrote:

So tell me L Bird, in the "communist society" you propose, we have a world wide vote on a scientific theory. For arguments sake let's take the theory of what causes thunder.The vote are cast and the "truth" is decided along the lines of discharge of electrons between clouds, etc. However I'm still of the opinion that it's caused by a big guy in the sky with a hammer called Thor.What happens to me? Am I carted off to a idealist-materialist reeducation camp to ensure I acknowledge "the truth". Also how long do I have to wait before we can have another vote?

Tim, stay out of it – I can't take your inability to discuss sensibly. I'll only end up getting banned, because I'll talk to you like one talks to a dimwit, and I shouldn't treat you like that, so I won't reply to your stupidities any further.If you don't like it, complain to the mods.

I take it you think I'm too stupid to take part in this conversation and I should leave it to an elite, such as L Bird to take part in the debate. Who's the Leninist now. With your narcissistic retort, me thinks your chronic low self esteem is starting to show itself.Alternatively you could just answer the question.

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So tell me L Bird, in the "communist society" you propose, we have a world wide vote on a scientific theory. For arguments sake let's take the theory of what causes thunder.The vote are cast and the "truth" is decided along the lines of discharge of electrons between clouds, etc. However I'm still of the opinion that it's caused by a big guy in the sky with a hammer called Thor.What happens to me? Am I carted off to a idealist-materialist reeducation camp to ensure I acknowledge "the truth". Also how long do I have to wait before we can have another vote?

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Steve-SanFrancisco-UserExperienceResearchSpecialist wrote:

I don't know where this goes, but I have an algorythim to legally win any election you want.  It's a bit of social engineering with a digital currenty solution to motivating supporters, that I discovered as a corrallary to my Unviersal Values Exchange System Protocols that I've been working on as a method of relacing money with something more perfect that could serve communism better than the capital goods based dollar.  Anyway, here's a tweet that would have given us bernie sanders for president if only it had been tweeted 6 months before the democratic primary.  this one tweet has the ability to exponentially multiply supporter turnout and engagement.  as well as covert undecided and even opositional views to the cause of Bernie Sanders.  Um, it would also work for republicans or democrats or socialist who want to win an election.  So Here's a peek at how I could have won the election for Bernier Sanders as president, if only I'd thought of it sooner.   

Quote:

I will give 1 hour of my time to anyone who votes.  Just send me a photo of your ballot stubs as proof.  You can vote any way you want and you can’t tell me how you vote.  I’m just rewarding you for your efforts to vote because I want you to vote and I want to prove it with an hour of my time.  Tell me what you want me to do for 1 hour and I’ll upload photo proof that I did what you asked.  See my public history and comments and ratings for my past 1 hour promises to others.  They’ve asked me to do some strange things with my 1 hour like quack like a duck while reading marx on a video cam channel, but whatever you want is cool with me.  I’d like to spend an hour planting a tree to picking up letter in a park if it’s nearby or something that helps the public good.   Tweet your photo and request to  #Bernie.coin.time.value.exchange.offer.133215342  I’ll reply with a link and estimated completion time for your 1 hour hour and you can come back and check the status and see how many favors I’ve done lately and how far you are in the list.  Also, I might trade my 1 hour favor with others who owe me time favors too, if that gets it done for you faster.  If you’re nearby one of my friends I could do some grocery shopping for you or something like that.  If you vote on the best 1 hour favor someone ask me to do you can win prizes and more hours of me doing whatever you want (within reason). For legal tax and voting law reasons there can be no exchange of property of monetary value, so don’t ask for money or ask me to write you a check or make any commitments with my 1 hour of service to you.  Public Notice: This exchange offer is valid only for registered democrats or independents.  Additionally, to qualify you must have at least 1 tweet in your twitter history favorable to Bernie Sanders and include a link to it.   (this is legal a way to prove that they likely voted for Bernie Sanders in the Primary). In your tweet, you must state your voter registration, link to your Bernie tweet, and a photo of your ballot entry for your entry into our contest to be valid.   

p.s. sorry if this is off topic. I'm not sure where something general and revolutionary would best fit in your discussions choices.  Please let me know where I should post this sort of information on your Board if this is the wrong place.  Sorry for the inconvenience I'm giving mods permission to move this for me in advance and my thanks for a PM telling me where they move it too. 

The price of LSD must have hit an all time low in San Francisco following Trump's election 

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robbo203 wrote:

LBird wrote:

robbo, the simple answer to your predicament is to realise that we don't share the same political ideology.I'm a Democratic Communist, influenced by Marx's ideas about 'social production', and the democratic control of that production.You believe something else.I can't explain my views from your perspective, only from my own.If you don't accept my Marxist viewpoint, that's fine by me. If you don't think all social production should be democratically controlled, that's fine by me.I'm more interested in discussing these democratic ideas about social production with socialists who are influenced by Marx.Quite frankly, your ideological focus on 'Opportunity Costs', 'specialists' and 'individuals' is irrelevant to me, and my views about social revolution, workers' democracy and socialism. My views, similarly, will be irrelevant to you.Why not take up your discussion with someone who shares your ideology?

So, once again, yet another famous LBird cop-out… You know, the idea that you can just dismiss the question of opportunity costs as ideological and something to be ignored is really quite silly.  Opportunity costs are unavoidable in life and in any conceivable kind of society.  I agree there is an ideological aspect to them inasmuch as they involve choices but that is a different matter.  The point is that you cannot avoid having to make such choices however ideological these choices are. There is nothing "Marxist" in dismissing the concept of opportunity costs.  In fact if Marx were a member of this forum I could well imagine him now  in front of his  laptop furiously  firing off a post in that characterisically brusque manner of his, branding LBird as an idealist nincompoop who has no grasp of basic economics Opportunity costs are everywhere.  If you LBird decide to respond to this post,  the opportunity cost of you doing so is to forego that game of snooker you promised you would play with your mates down at the pub.  If a socialist society decided to build a bridge out of 20k tonnes of some metal alloy then the opportunity costs of that is to do without all those tractors you could have manufactured out of all this metal alloy.  If Jill decide to take a 5 year degree course to become a competent neurosurgeon then the opportunity cost of that is to abandon the idea of becoming a competent and trained up geophysicist  able to decide whether some obscure theory in geophysics is true or not And finally – on what grounds do you imagine I do not support the idea that "production should be democratically controlled"???  I do and I have said so.  Howeever that idea is TOTALLY TOTALLY TOTALLY different to the idea we are talking about here which is the idea of "democratically determining whether scientific theories are true". I feel I need to capitalise these words and repeat them  to bring this to your attention. Why is it that whenever we have this discussion you always scurry back to the comfrot zone of appealing to the idea that production should be democratically controlled when this is NOT – repeat NOT – what I am calling into question?? You are trying to couple this idea with your own idiosyncratic idea which is nowhere to be found in Marx that scientific theories should be democratically voted upon, Ive seen through your tactic LBird and it wont wash….

Robbo, your whole argument is completely fallacious. Are you honestly expecting the members of this forum, to swallow this disingenuous nonsense whole? The very idea? I can't believe that a contributor with such a consistent track record of well developed and consistent argument would have the temerity to think that we would seriously believe that L Bird had a mate?Shame in you

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Bob Andrews wrote:

They also have a pair of bicycle clips said to have been worn by Jack Fitzgerald, which they intend to sell on e-bay. Who –  apart from jondwhite –  would be daft enough to buy them? If Fitz were alive today to witness all this he would turn in his grave.

Perhaps there's an old tube of Harry Young's haemorrhoid cream knocking about at Head Office. Might make a few bob for the Party on eBay?

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lindanesocialist wrote:

Take time out and calm down, your contributions to this forum would be missed. 

its a shame, Linda, that Vin did not take on board your very wise words. If he had done perhaps we wouldn't be in the situation we now find ourselves.Whilst I have no wish to rehash past difficulties, perhaps Vin might reflect on how far his intemperate responses and reactions have contributed to the present situation.Whilst I have been somewhat critical of the ways in which the Mods have handled some of the issues. I think Vin also needs to understand that if he is going to make the kind of "little Hitler" remarks he has made, then it is not unnatural that those he makes those remarks about will feel annoyed and offendedI think it is terribly sad that a valued contributor to this forum feels that they can no longer contribute to this forum because of some of the accusations that have been flung about by contributors. In my opinion we all need to be conscious of the impact of our contributions and we all need to be aware of our responsibilities as Socialists, to our fellow Socialists and to our movement.

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Nice to see you have entered the spirit of solution focussed approaches,  Brian. Also good to see that the Mods are able to liaise and come to a joint position at such speed. Cynics might think that you are expressing your individual view on my suggestion, perish the thought.I disagree with what you say about the moderators view of the rules. I recall Mod 2 and I having a lengthy conversation about the very subject. I also think it is confusing when you appear to conflate the IC and the moderators. Surely the Mods make decisions about Moderation not the IC. The view of the IC is about as relevant as the view of my cat (although he hasn't as yet expressed a strong opinion)Similarly in the original post Mod 2 states "any queries and complaints against the decisiions or actions of the moderators should be by PM. Actually rule 15 states "queries or appeals about particular moderation decisions should be sent to the moderators by private message".Actually in the rule there is no mention of actions or complaints. I would respectfully suggest that if the moderators (and this statement was agreed to by Mods 1, 2 and 3) are going to "enforce the rules " and "apply the rules" they should have some bloody idea what the rules actually are!!!! So just to be absolutely clear about the rules (which you think do not need to be amended) I cannot query a decision, for example "Mod 1 why did you make that decision" but I can "complain" about a decision, "I think that was a stupid decision Cde Moderator" and I can also make comment on an action the moderators have taken for example "I think you made a complete tit of yourself there Cde Moderator". I am also perfectly free to comment on an action of the moderators "I think your action in banning Cde X was a complete parcel of shite" You see the thing is, it is vey easy to go down a pedantic and rule focussed approach. Surely it would be better to draw back, reflect on the best way forward for the party and attempt to implement a decision that reflects common sense .

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jondwhite wrote:

There is a new trend for opponents of Trump and Brexit to wear safety pins to

Quote:

to identify themselves as allies in the fight against intolerance, and to show solidarity with women, LGBT people, immigrants, and people of color feeling frightened by Trump’s presidency and the vitriol that some of his supporters display. The safety pin was adopted in England after the Brexit vote, as immigrants and people of color found themselves increasingly subject to racist attacks, serving as a visual symbol indicating that the wearer supports tolerance and stands in solidarity with marginalized groups.

Punk Rock lives. Does this mean I can dust off my bondage pants and leather jacket?

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SocialistPunk wrote:

Linda, why is it you keep omitting certain facts? Could it be that the facts you consistently skirt around, are the ones that don't sit easily in your narrative?Vin was issued with the indefinite suspension by moderator1 from this forum in March of this year. Vin would have been told of the appeal process, of which he knew from previous suspensions. Yet he chose not to pursue the matter.When Vin was suspended in March 2016, there was only moderator1, monitoring the forum. Meaning moderators 2 and 3 were not involved in Vin’s suspension.June 2016. The IC informed the EC that they would not handle any more communication from Vin.July 2016. The EC made a decision to deal with all communication from Vin that was sent to the IC. Meaning Vin's appeal would be handled by the EC.August 2016. Vin publicly asked the three moderators to reinstate him on the forum. The decision made was that he be advised to follow the existing appeal process, that any other member would be required to do. So despite your claim, the three moderators did not suspend Vin. Perhaps Vin thought the existing appeal process should not apply to him?September 2016. Vin finally engages with the appeal process and sends a request to the EC, asking them to reinstate him on the forum. Meaning Vin left it 6 months before setting in motion the appeal process, to challenge his suspension.No explanation as to why Vin left it six months to appeal his suspension has, as far as I can tell, ever been given. Instead, we’ve had eight months and counting, of yourself and at times Vin, using this forum as a means of circumnavigating the appeal process, often resulting in uncomradely comments and accusations. the latest being, that the IC have deliberately ignored an EC instruction.

I think part of the issue here is that both sides are taking entrenched positions, which frequently refer to past indiscretions (on both sides) and which very rarely appear to focus on a preferred outcome. I think it is important to stress that this has been exacerbated by the lack of EC minutes, which would have clarified things on both sides and provided a means of moving forward.In this context I can understand that Vin would feel frustrated at not being reinstated, despite a rumoured decision by the EC to that effect, however I can also understand that The Mods have a requirement for instruction as well.  I think it is fairly clear that the best outcome for the party is that we find a way of putting all of this unedifying crap behind us.I think, (taking into account Vin's understandable frustration at not hearing from the EC) that despite the alleged glove puppet incident, and in the interests of moving forward, it is appropriate that Vin's ban be lifted.I also think that  Vin should agree publicly to abide by moderation decisions and the rules as they currently stand, (including disputes about moderation) I also think referring this back to the EC only creates more work for the EC when they (and we) should be concentrating on more important things.If both sides are hoping for complete vindication, then they both really need to understand that that will never happen,  nor is it important or desireable. I also think that this dispute is a clear indication that the current rules are not functioning appropriately (which the Mods have openly agreed). It is to be regretted that the time taken up with this dispute and with point scoring on both sides, has meant less has been available to be used more productively and cooperatively creating a better set of rules Can I suggest a way forward would be for the Mods to reinstate Vin, as soon the EC minutes are published. For the Mods to issue a warning to Vin re the use of duel accounts. For Vin to accept this warning and undertake not to use a duel account again. For the "Machiavelli" account to be closed. For  Vin to publicly withdraw the comments made on the Machiavelli account. For Vin to abide by the rules as they currently stand and thus we free up the Mods time to get on with amending the rules.

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Young Master Smeet wrote:

Tim Kilgallon wrote:

I'm not sure how familiar cdes Marraty and the comrades who take the role of Mods are with Eric Berne's theory of psychological games. However they may find Stephen Karpman's development of this theory and in particular his concept of the "drama triangle" particularly enlightening.

I've been reading up about this, and it's highly suggestive and useful.  One thing I'd say is that we need to find a way to cut down on drama.  Rules 14 and 15 provide one such route, asking would be "rescuers" to keep their nebs out. Generally accepting the omerta on moderation decisions may help any "victim" in the triangle to re-oriientate themselves as creators, focusing on creating socialist content, and seeing their challenge as to to not bring down the sanction of the moderator.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangleI think we all need to work together to get away from drama, nad back to socialism.

whilst I'm happy to see you've found Karpman's work useful. I would say the Wikipedia entry is a bit superficial.The Drama Triangle is a transactional game and the resolution of games is to reject stylised communication in favour of open honest frank communication.The suggestion that rescuers keep out doesn't really help that. It must be remembered that in the TA model games are played from a sub conscious place and the players are unaware of their actions.Another element of the Karpman Triangle is that at any given time all of the players can swap. The victim can get annoyed at some element of the process and start to persecute the rescuer, who then becomes the victim, they can then look to the persecutor to rescue them, and off we go again, in different positions. Berne's work on Transactional Analysis is fascinating, however a bit like old Charle Marx, it's better to read his original work than some of the interpretations of his work by others. That said TA Today is a really good introductory text.

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