ALB
Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Like yours my christian neighbours are a bit woolly but less radical than yours. They don’t agree with
Quote:a world where the profit incentive is not only void, it is taboo.They have nothing against profit as such, but only object to capitalist firms making too much profit, which they regard as unethical. For them, it’s not Profit, but the Love of Profit, that is the Root of All Evil (or something like that). They think ethical profits are ok.
After the EC Meeting on Saturday two of us went to St Pauls to see how the general assemblies there work. While waiting we got into a discussion with a couple of supporters of Henry George’s plan for a single tax on land values. Immediately a few other people gathered round to listen. It’s like that there.There were about 300 or so people seated on the steps of St Pauls. The meeting was opened by a “facilitator” who explained the hand signals involved in “consensus decision-making” and introduced someone to report on the attempted march on parliament (which didn’t seem to have been all that satisfactory). He then called on someone to introduce the topic for discussion, which turned out to be the not all that interesting one of how to welcome visitors to the camp. The participants then formed into groups of 20 or so to discuss the topic and make suggestions (the two of us had to sit on the ground to take part/follow the discussion). After 20 minutes the spokespersons for the groups reported from the podium, addressing those present as “Fellow Occupiers”. No conclusion was drawn so no decision was made on this occasion. Reports from various working groups (environment, future vision, cleaning, etc) follow. Then anybody who wanted to could speak for a minute and a dozen or so did announcing various events.The whole thing was run democratically, though I’m still not sure what happens in the event of a consensus not been able to reached, as must happen, surely? In any event, a temporary forum for democratic debate has been opened up in the centre of London and seems to have been the conscious aim of some of the original organisers.The embarrassing “What Would Jesus Do?” banner has been taken down and replaced by “Real Democracy Now”. There were a few SWPers there who had been on the march to parliament still carrying their placards saying “He [Cameron] Has To Go”. Pathetic for people who see themselves as a “vanguard”. Actually they’re more a rearguard. Most, maybe all, the “occupiers” are way ahead of them realising that a change of prime minister would make no difference whatsoever. In fact, is there anyone who thinks it would?
Picked up a London Zeitgeist leaflet at the camp at St Pauls yesterday evening and was surprised to find that it criticised Monetary Reform which some of them are into (and which many at the camp certainly are). This is what it said:
Quote:PRIMARY GLOBAL CHANGES NEEDEDThe Global Monetary SystemEven if reformed, the Monetary System is incapable of becoming the tool to build the kind of egalitarian emancipated societies we need in order to thrive. Why? Because going back to the gold standard, outlawing interest, letting governments distribute money debt free and such like, have logical merits, but the Monetary System, in whatever form, still maintains resource and equality imbalances and holds back our progress, while creating by its fundamental design, poverty and scarcity of basic needs. This is the underlying problem that needs to be served.Self InterestThe accepted motive of seeking competitive gain at the expense of others remains even in a reformed Monetary System. There may be less pressure if interest didn’t exist, but the scarcity of money would still exist. A Monetary System and scarcity of money are inseparable. This money scarcity, so prevalent today is the basis of corruption and would continue to be a gangrenous reality of business as usual. This is why it’s extremely difficult to “take the money out of politics” . We need to take monetary relations out of everything.Cyclical ConsumptionThis flawed economic doctrine would be present even in a reformed Monetary System. The raison d’etre of each corporation or commercial enterprise is PROFIT at all cost. Since repeat sales for so-called “growth” and profit is required for survival, the monetary system’s own logic demands increased consumption, spiralling debt and, worst of all, massive waste and inefficient use of resources as goods are made as cheaply as possible and discarded year upon year in favour of the marketing hyped “latest model”. This also re-enforces the belief of non-sustainability as an unavoidable “normality”.Technological UnemploymentThe lost jobs that are never coming back. When employers implement new productivity enhancing technology it often displaces labour, which can no longer be absorbed elsewhere. This mechanism will continue in a reformed Monetary System, with growing unemployment increasing the severity of the world socio/economic crisis. War and poverty are inevitable consequences of the Monetary/Market System economy profit at all costs doctrine, reformed or otherwise.Ok, there are still limitations in their economic analysis from our point of view, but this is a great advance on some of the ideas some of them used to express on their now defunct global forum.Maybe there’s hope for them yet !
stuartw2112 wrote:And I bet some of them were Christians.No doubt some of the Oakland Occupiers were, but according to this report some were not:
Quote:On a main cathedral, someone spray painted along the protection wall “No Gods, No Masters.”Ozymandias wrote:Normally I think “how the fuck will workers ever acheive anything beyond trades unions consciousness without the SPGB” but now I am beginning to think that through a process of logical elimination they may come very close…on their own anyway? Are they working things out for themselves…despite our existence? I mean is this possible? Is it even a possibility that the WSM will be swept away in the hurly burly…and that World Socialism/RBE/Post Capitalism/Whatever It’s Called will be established anyway? Am I talking pure shite here?No, you’re not. You’re expressing what the SPGB has always said.We’re not so presumptuous as to think that the whole future of the world depends on us. What we do say is that people will come to a realisation that capitalism needs to be replaced by Whatever It’s Called quicker if there’s already an organised group arguing for this (on the basis of past experience).
I must confess that Peter Joseph is a good publicist for a world without money, especially as he always emphasises the world aspect of the way-out (and despite the money-as-debt stuff and his rejection of democracy both in theory and practice).There’s another interview with him on RT here where he actually mentions one class exploiting another.
Things seem to be rather different the other side of the Atlantic or rather Pacific:http://news.yahoo.com/occupy-rally-shuts-down-shipping-port-indefinitely-062334964.html
DJP wrote:I wonder what they meant by ‘socialism’ however.John from Newcastle says it was mainly the “Revolutionary Communist Group” (who bring out Fight Imperialism, Fight Racism or is it the other way round?) who were behind the vote. Apparently what they mean by “socialism” is something like what’s supposed to exist in Cuba. Oh dear, with friends like these …Meanwhile, here in London, here is what one of the lecturers at Tent City University thinks about “anti-capitalism”. It turns out that he stood in the last election as a breakaway Tory candidate in Wokingham. What’s somebody like him doing at a protest that is billed as “anti-capitalist” ?I suppose that all this shows that these tent camps are places where wide-ranging political discussions are/can take place.
The New York declaration begins:”As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world can know that we are your allies.As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the cooperation of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.”This is not bad insofar as it does not single out just bankers (as do many other Occupy statements) but includes all capitalist corporations. It’s obviously based on the US Declaration of Independence, which I suppose has a certain echo in America. In fact perhaps it’s not such a bad tactic to call the US Constitution’s bluff (better than in London where they are calling the Church’s bluff).The trouble is that it suggests that the way out is just effective democratic control. Of course this is part of the solution but on its own wouldn’t make much difference as it would amount only to a reform in the system of government, however radical, that would still leaving the money-wages-profit economy intact. To make a difference it would need to be accompanied by the common ownership of all productive resources.
Nannipieri wrote:— So, it sort of repeats itself, but it’s clear from the ‘demands being met’ and ‘political elites ignoring citizens’ lines that the aim is fairer representative democracy within capitalism. Vote Labour. Occupy LSX.I think it’s more Vote Green rather than Vote Labour.
Cesco wrote:I see this as a middle class movement rather than a working class movement.Apart from the objection that most of those who are called “middle class” are in fact working class since they too are obliged to try to sell their mental and physical energies to an employer to live, I don’t think that it is even a middle class movement in your sense (presumably university-educated people). The people interviewed by the media as their spokespersons seem to be, but from what I saw yesterday most of them are from the alternative lifestyle scene who’ve probably been to various peace camps, climate change camps,etc before (the vegan cafe is a clue). These too of course are members of the working class but a sub-culture that is cut off from the rest of the working class and unlikely to have an impact on them. Still, some of them may be open to socialist ideas.
Cesco wrote:I am afraid that the working class, in particular in the so called rich countries, has no bargaining power whatsoever so they won’t openly follow this movement. It is true that if unemployment keeps growing there won’t be any other choice, but occupying every possible place. But again is it matter of convincing a few occupy-people or the large majority of workers and unemployed?Don’t worry. We’ll be present too at the 30 November TUC “Day of action” when the mainstream working class will be more involved.
After stuffing the November Standard into envelopes two of us went to St Pauls to see the occupation. I can confirm that the “Capitalism Is Crisis” banner that was there on the first day was not there any more and that the most prominent one was now “What would Jesus have thought?”.Managed to take some photos (like the one above) but can’t say I was impressed. There didn’t seem to be all that much “anti-capitalism” about except there was an SWP stall (but that’s pro-state capitalism) and, I nearly forgot, Chris Knight in a top hat announcing that capitalism was going to collapse tomorrow.We went to a lecture at the Tent City University and listened for a while to the lecturer until we realised that he was expounding the economic doctrines of … Henry George, an advocate of free market capitalism + a single tax on land values. There was also a banner for http://www.positivemoney.org.uk, another free market group. Unfortunately the photo of this did not come out, nor did the one of the poster supporting David Icke. We saw an empty Zeitgeist tent and left a copy of the Standard for former SPGB member Cliff who was supposed to be there.All this underlines the need for us to be there put the real anti-capitalism (and pro-socialism) case.
John Bisset texts from Newcastle:”Apparently, the general assembly meeting of occupy newcastle agreed last night it was socialist, which upset a few. In the meantime I have posted a defence of socialism on the relevant facebook page and offered to present a talk on socialism. Going back today with more bumpf to keep the pressure on.”The relevant facebook page is here (Occupy Newcastle and every city worldwide) where “Rabble Rouser” replies to Glen Jamin Calculus-Panges..
