alanjjohnstone
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‘whose Primary industries, and many Secondary Industries are dying, and where Tertiary andQuaternary industries are on the rise.’ Quarternary…now there is an everyday word for workers to understand! Apparently in a later reference to this i gather it means part of the service sector. A Unitarian movement for a Unitarian Front.!!i first misread it as Utilitarian as in the church…lolWhy is it that groups who say they seek unity always form breakaways rather than uniting by joining existing organisations? Why re-invent the wheel all the time. I realised this when the CP breakaway trade unions of the 30s were called united miners of scotland and united garment workers union. Both were never united and both failed to take off. http://socialist-courier.blogspot.com/2012/05/red-union.html
Darren just hastily posted one on the bloghttp://socialismoryourmoneyback.blogspot.com/2013/04/the-wicked-witch-is-dead.htmlBased on some comments here and c and p from Standard.i discovered any obituary is going to be a challenge, for she certainly left her mark (not her arms dealer, coup conspirator son)
Which bank is paying 5% interest these days, Adam? The drop in interest rates exposed the precarious nature of many living on a private-income. They too could be deemed part of the the precariat.i know a number of workers, humble postmen, who have assets of half a million in the shape of their house, bought when property was relatively cheap in the 70s and their mortgages now paid off. Surely you are not saying that if they sold the house and went into rented accommodation and lived off whats left after rent, they are members of the capitalist class.I know some people mostly Londoners or Home Counties where rents are high who can afford to rent their houses out, and live abroad as absentee landlords and ex-pats on that limited income. It would be all akin to saying living off an occupational pension (or private pension) because it invests in shares and bonds makes you a capitalist.I sold my house, although not for the above price, a lot less in fact, took the equity and put it into an income bond and took an early retirement occupational pension. I live in a third world country relatively comfortably compared to the majority of the local population, even if i still have to keep to a budget.Shall i now re-designate myself as a capitalist rather than a fortunate worker?We cannot set the bar for being a capitalist too low or we will encounter so many exceptions and contradictions to the rule.
£20,000 income from dividends or interest makes you a member of the capitalist class?Quite a poor member of the capitalist class unless its weekly or monthly income, wouldn't you say, Adam? Less than 400 hundred quid a week? Before or after tax?I usually say when asked who is a member of the capitalist class – they are people who never need to look to look at what their bank balance is, no matter what they buy . Didn't some wag say if you know how rich you are, you aren't.
I see that the CMP has the logo and the flags and are participating in demos. But as you say I cannot find anything that describes their political platform. The cart before the horse?I'm also guessing that since both You Tube videos were located in Dundee, they are too.The first point of difference would be the right for neo-fascists to express themselves. The SPGB has always argued that not only is it wrong in principle to try and suppress the right-wing because it can easily be turned against ourselves by the state but it is also wrong tactically because it turns them into the victim and martyrs. I know that the illegality of para-military uniforms was brought in because of the Mosley's Blackshirts but I know personally of one person arrested at a troops out protest for wearing a black beret, sun-glasses and a combat jacket…the uniform of the IRA , it was alleged…he was found guilty.
"Polygamy, still practised widely, is another example of patriarchy – if the man can afford it he can have four (I think) wives and umpteen concubines."4 I believe is only the Muslim limit. Other cultures in Africa , for instance impose no such limit.. depends on how many cows you have so to afford the marriage-gift.Nor should we forget about polyandry – women with multiple husbands. Still exists in some areas of the Himalayas and while I was living in South India I got told it happens in some rural communities there. Once again it is based on economic factors – scarcity of land so brothers take the same women as a wife to avoid dividing the land.Again one of the local custom for divorce in the woman's case is simply to place the husbands shoes outside the home…I suppose the same as here, by her packing his case and chucking his things out. Those informal means work when the community accepts them as acceptable practices. No need for lengthy legal proceedings and expensive lawyers. But once more it only was common when neither the woman or husband had much in the material sense to lose or fight for. Nowadays ita can be all about the who's name the house is in and shares of occupational pension rights.As an aside I have vague memories of white-sheet collections around the doors. When someone passed away to pay for the funeral costs friends went around the street holding out a sheet into which neighbours tossed in money.We have discussed marriage…will socialism change the way we see death and how we conduct our funeral rites…All these questions.Last funeral I went to was a Birmingham man cremated Indian style…a pit dug in his front garden, a pyre built and he is taken from his death bed and place in it then set alight…I left when his body fats began to sizzle…I'm told gases build up in the skull and the head sort of explodes…I had a morbid curiousity to see that, but desisted the temptation…. Nevertheless I found the ritual as dignified as going to a crematorium and definitely cheaper. I don't know if it helped his roses but every pet I had that died was buried in the garden with a rose-bush planted over it.How's that for off-topic !!
Janet’s original post mentions a wider ceremomy of commitment – to neighbours and community. We do have those. To acquire citizenship to the UK applicants have to take an oath (or affirm)“ I, [name], swear by Almighty God [or “do solemnly, sincerely and truly affirm and declare”] that, on becoming a British citizen, I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, her heirs, and successors, according to law.” and then in addition to this they pledge “ I will give my loyalty to the United Kingdom and respect its rights and freedoms. I will uphold its democratic values. I will observe its laws faithfully and fulfil my duties and obligations as a British citizen.” This can be contrasted with the more liberal Kingdom of Norway where it is optional to even make the pledge “As a citizen of Norway I pledge loyalty to my country Norway and to the Norwegian society, and I support democracy and human rights and will respect the laws of the country.”In Australia it is the "Pledge of Commitment": – “From this time forward, under God, I pledge my loyalty to Australia and its people, whose democratic beliefs I share, whose rights and liberties I respect, and whose laws I will uphold and obey”
Since it has been brought up a few times I’ll try to respond to the question of what are we to do in a little bit more coherently. For me participating in elections, whether local, national, or Euro is only one tool we should use. Nothing is automatic or mechanical. Capitalism generates dissatisfaction but that dissatisfaction can take a great many forms depending on what people think and what their options are. And all outcomes are built by people in their particular time and circumstance, none follow automatically. As said on another thread on the forum , a recession can just as easily result in an upsurge of right-wing ideas.Nor does militancy necessarily equate with revolutionary understanding. Militancy can be used for a "better deal", a compromise slice of, rather than, the whole pie. Workers can use class struggle either offensively or defensively. Sometimes direct action comes because of impatience with a slow process and is thus counter-productive or it is used when there is no other form of struggle or reform available. Direct action alone and by itself is not inherently revolutionary. However, it can be self-empowering and this is positive.If people begin to see many other people around them willing to fight and engage in collective actions, this gives them more of a sense of having the power to change things, and the wider the level of solidarity, the more extensive the potential power of the working class. A more ambitious agenda for social revolutionary change becomes less irrelevant, less "impractical". But the solidarity must go beyond those who we work alongside in the workplace or live alongside in our community.History shows that there were much greater number of “revolutionaries” (I’m being purposefully generous in defining revolutionaries to include non-SPGB “socialists” who in the past had a greater understanding of what Marx and socialism really was than to-days typical Leftist) who lived and worked in the factories and neighbourhoods, who had been formed through the long hard slog of the activities of radical organisations (again i would be more inclusive to which parties), publications, study circles, and various working class cultural institutions, in which anti-capitalist ideas were transmitted. These militants on the scene then acted as organisers and catalysts, if there was the anger, discontent and a general will to fight.Teachers and writers and speakers are not in themselves a vanguard leadership but they do have a concrete effect on situations and educate and inspire. I doubt Chomsky himself ever stood on a picket-line but who can deny his explanations of society has not brought forth activists that have. Nor is there anything sectarian by criticisng and correcting misconceptions and false ideas that may be held by our fellow workers. That is the task for socialists. Other members know from past contributions that i have sought to argue for greater co-operation and collaboration with what is called the “thin red line”, various anarchist and Left Communists, who constitute the non-market, anti-state sector. But as some of us have problems with them and some of them have problems with ourselves. It will be enough not to be hostile to them, IMHO.
Alex, i was needlessly a touch too pedantic about the word co-operative.Marx himself uses the term, "co-operative society" to describe socialism/communism. Also "republic of labour" , "society of free and associated producers" or simply "Association". Commonwealth and "common treasury" has been used by the SPGB.It is all in the context, isn't it? So use it by all means but make sure its meaning is unambiguous.Sorry if i gave the impression i was lecturing or hectoring yourself. (i probably was but unintentionally)
SusSoc thinks my reference to not being able to say what marriage will be like in socialism is a bit of a cliche, but I have found that members are quite happy to to say many bad attributes of human behaviour will disappear in socialism because the material conditions will have an effect upon them but are happy to project the good ones into socialism such as love unchanged, as if they will also not undergo the same influences and be transformed too.Also I think we are being very parochial in the debate, associating marriage with our own UK culture. So I will widen marriage.Arranged marriages are of course common in many other parts of the world and knowing some couples who were so married I recognise certain benefits for the individuals and am not into a blanket condemnation of their way. In most arranged marriages it is consensual and voluntary and a stronger bond is formed than some Western ones. But the partnership is also very much an economic alliance. Very much alike to the increasing marriages of convenience that occur with western men and asian women which again has good and bad elements.Forced marriages nevertheless happen in not just a few cases. Often with the state's endorsement, SusSoc.I also know how serious the issue of dowry is in a marriage agreement. For the poor it serves as another link in the chain of debt slavery being forged for the family of the bride.Again there are many cases of wife abuse and even murder caused from the non-appearance of a promised dowry.Dowry marriages are technically illegal by the state but like many laws imposed upon custom it is ignored and nor is it just Hindus but Muslims and Christians who still follow the practice.So as world socialists, yes, we must affirm categorically that the status and form of marriage will end.
"We need economic planning, though if this planning is made by unions each citizen must have a say, not a small minority.""You hit the nail on the head. Syndicalism, Industrial Unionism of both IWW and SLP varieties and workers councils need to have a democratic relationship with wider society to determine what is needed, how much is required and the ecological way they are produced. Within the individual enterprises and in particular industries the workers will control the specifics of the production process. There will not be "co-operative" ownership in the sense of co-ops which would be just a variant of sectional ownership…mines to the miners and so on , which would deprive society having social ownership and control, but common ownership which really means no ownership if we all actually own it.Your second point is one i often make against those who disparage the vote and talk taking about power in the streets and on the barricades. They forget that the old , the young and the infirm, those with responsibilities to those people cannot participate in such a revolutionary manner, are excluded . Insurrections are predominantly for young single males!The vote gives us inclusiveness, their voice, their input, their constructive contribution . It is not passive as those anti-parliamentarians claim when properly utilised but a means of everybody to be involved in decision-making when they cannot attend the general assemblies, the mass pickets and protests and occupations.Socialism is not a matter of governments and legislation but simply collectively addressing peoples needs in a voluntary style of organising society.
SocialistPunk wrote:I see the future of socialism taking off at the local community level. The pieces will not slip into place with propaganda alone. Do any socialists seriously think a switch will one day flip to the "revolution on" position in most peoples brains as a product of propaganda? Somehow the WSM needs to find a way to connect to everyday people. To help to empower peopleI think for many SPGBers this is taken as said. Our party structure and organisation is based upon local branches. We stand by the statement of the 1st International that the act of emancipation must be by the working class itself.But as I said earlier in passing there is also the economic organisational aspect to consider and thats the organisation within the unions and the work-places. This has to be in tandem with community activities and neither can be neglected. Individual memebers will choose which option for them as individuals will be the more effective and fruitful.I touched upon social/affinity groups and by this I meant the host of special interests that has to be brought under the socialist umbrella….single parents, disabled (physical and mental health), the environmental problems, and the innumerable of cultural groups that possss demands. I actually consider the IWCA approach of sports and study groups as something that is necessary. Edinburgh branch of the SPGB actually had a football team called Capital. We have to demonstrate that no aspect of peoples life is left untouched by socialism. The German SPD had thosands of spin-offs in the daily lives of workers , the british bike and rambling clubs at turn of century too are just an example of how socialist politics is also about the social!But complementary to this is the political challenge of taking class power by workers at at some point this is national elections and entering Parliament to remove the capitalists from political controlNor do I think any of us in the SPGB think that some fine morning the working class will wake up and decide wouldn't it be nice to have socialism.How we act as a catalyst for workers is the eternal question and not just for us but all on the Left. Leaders and vanguards have been tried and failed. Reforms and piecemeal palliatives have been tried and failed. Riots and insurrections have been tried and failed. The SPGB having learned the lessons of these failed efforts have chosen the slow educational policy. It can't be said to have failed since it is glacially slow but like a glacier it slowly changes the political landscape.Whatever triggers off a surge in political activity, the SPGB strategy can supplement it, not substitute for it like most left practices would.
First, I am not accusing SP of being reformist but making a point about local election activity. No matter how well meaning a candidate is, it will lead to disillusionment if elected in a situation where there is not a general upsurge in socialist consciousness and activity. IWCA made that very clear.We are socialists not social workers. If we engage in that within the community socialist activitiy will be subsumed.John Bissett was very active in his neighbourhood yet I recall his disappointment when it did not transfer into votes.It was related to the thread…standing for elections. At this time it can only be for propaganda purposes so whether local or euro the issue is which provides the wider audiene. It should not be as i think SP was saying as providing examples of socialist democracy in practice. I'm not sure how we could do that at this point in time. We need to understand why we stand in elections. At this time certainly not to get elected or we would face the problem IWCA faced. It is IMHO simply to spread the idea of socialism to an audience that rarely hears the case for it. I was not making any comment on decentralisation. But to address you question, some council/region admin areas will be used…others will be adjusted and adapted . How much and what responsibilities a parish council will have compared with a large city council or regional council will have to be agreed but what we have now will be the spring-board. There will be multiple structures of organisation not just geographic, there will be industrial ones, as well as social/affinity sector, all having to somehow merge at different levels for different purposes. The process will start as the numbers of socialists grows. We too will see the rise of study groups and sports and cultural clubs. As the early 20th C also witnessedSince I was in the IWW your impression I'm against co-operative decentalisation is wrong but how Industrial Unions relate to federated communes, will be a question that will answered when we are closer to that objective. What technology will be used to express democracy is another issue we will meet.There is a lot of things we at the time can only generalise about and cannot be specific about.
