alanjjohnstone
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I often ask myself how many wars were waged, how much blood was shed to create those entities we call nations. They didn’t evolve organically but were imposed by coercion and force.
The process continues to this very day as this thread demonstrates but it is even highlighted more by the civil wars going on in Africa when borders and countries were arbitrarily decided.
You ask if a worker can have strong sense of collective identity (including “class consciousness”) while at the same time sharing a sense of belonging to the place where he lives, in the country where he has a common life in what is called a nation state?
Yes for the first part, the place he lives, but I question the latter statement that the nation-state represents his common life.
Regional, neighbourhood, and communal affections and attachments are often stronger than national. The street gang rivalry for the right to call a few streets and a housing estate one’s own territory. In a previous post I gave an example of football tribalism.
How these arise is a valid question. There are a variety of apparent causes, ethnicity, religion and so on. There is also the baggage of history that linger and pass down generations.
Search for the origins and I think it is simple economic competition for a secure livelihood that brings them about. So for me, the answer to the divisions that exist, is not all those nationalisms but satisfying people’s material needs.
I’m an ex-pat, (the polite term for an economic migrant seeking a cheaper way of life). Do I miss certain things about the land of my birth? Yes. The long summer days. Are there things I don’t miss? Yes, the early darkness of winter. Oh after a few pints of Guinness, my favourite tipple but developed in another country, I could go on and list many many more things to both lists.
But have I discovered that there is something very special in being born and raised in a particular place that is unique, something not shared with others from elsewhere, not really. Yes, there are some differences, all can be put down to culture and traditions. Even your example of family upbringing is not uniform or universal. Religious beliefs also may appear different but delve deeper, they are all pretty much the same. Am I emotionally connected to the land of my birth? No. But I do still have family, friends and Party comrades there, relationships that remain a bond, regardless of geographic distance.
I speak from my own identity – a citizen of the world. Once I chose to live in another part of the world, the reality of documentation, passports, and visas became a burden.
The problems of all those who seek to live in another country either by choice or necessity resonates strongly with me. For several months I possessed no passport,(the renewal of the old one caught up in the government backlog). Because of the legalistic determination of nationality, I existed in limbo.
Having said the above, I do not see my situation as very much different from someone who may happen to move home from Wick to Walsall. The world is our home, not a country or a city.
Being what we describe as a world socialist has always, for me at least, distinguished the SPGB and the WSM. In our internal debates I have frequently placed that criteria above the continued existence of a political body called the Socialist Party *of Great Britain*
But this is off topic and apologies for moderating my own posts more impartially.
The coup took place when the then president, Yanukovych, would not sign an agreement with the European Union.
Re-writing history
The first invasion was not 2022 but 2014 when Russia annexed Crimea.
I accept Crimea had more affinity with Russia but it cannot be overlooked that Russian troops took possession of Crimea in breach of international law.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-putin-crimea-idUSKBN0M51DG20150309
Hitler’s occupation of the Rhineland, Anschluss and the Saar were all approved by inhabitants by referendums. Sudetenland overwhelming voted for the Nazis in Dec 1938
In regards to the separatist republics, Russian troops were sent in to bolster its defences. I fully expect you to reject such claims.
The expansion of NATO was a threat to Russia and it rightly demanded safeguards that Ukraine would not be accepted as a member. The responses were very fudged and NATO countries were divided. Which meant the unanimous admittance was not guaranteed.
“… providing space for all nations to pursue sovereignty and peaceful co-prosperity…”
Ahhhh…so that is why Russia invaded Ukraine, to ensure its sovereignty, bring it peace and secure its prosperity.
…just like God, Putin acts in mysterious ways…
Like it or not, the origins of the secession and the escalation to war ultimately can be found in two differing economic plans.
One was to seek a closer relationship with the European Union and its economy. The other was to maintain its connection with the Russian-oriented Eurasian Economic Community. The Ukrainian ruling class oligarchs were divided.
The EU option suited the agrarian interests of western Ukraine. The EAEC fitted better with the more industrial eastern part of the country.
The EU welcomed cheap labour from Eastern Europe and those Eastern European countries such as Poland looked to fill its subsequent labour shortage with even cheaper Ukrainians.
The language and cultural reasons for the war were, as I see it, justifications since they were not previously a serious problem. It was just a matter of the politicians creating division and strife. Foreign powers were not neutral nor honest-brokers.
Czech anarchists list 31 reasons NOT to die for Ukraine
[antimilitarismus] Anarchist antimilitarism and myths about the war in Ukraine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudohistory
“Pseudohistory is a form of pseudoscholarship that attempts to distort or misrepresent the historical record, often by employing methods resembling those used in scholarly historical research.”
Thousands gathered in central London on Saturday to demonstrate against what they called “Tory austerity” and demand an immediate general election.
The protest, called Britain is Broken, was organised by the People’s Assembly Against Austerity, and supported by groups including CND, Unite, Just Stop Oil and Extinction Rebellion.
In your reply to me you concentrate upon Crimea. I believe I added a caveat to my post suggesting it was the exception.
I also included the very important qualification that political events would switch people’s political opinion.
Did the SPGB ever deny the right-wing influences. No.
What we said in 2014
The political situation is seen as very fluid and involved a complex combination of ideologies all vying for influence and power.
“…Russian talk about a ‘fascist coup’ does have some basis in reality. The ‘Maidan’ movement may well have started as a peaceful protest of citizens against the corrupt and oppressive government of President Yanukovych, but it was the violent clashes between police and armed insurgents that finally brought that government down. And it was semi-fascist groups of Ukrainian ultra-nationalists – in particular, the Right Sector led by Dmytro Yarosh – who played the leading role in the insurgency and were rewarded with posts in the new government.
What strains credulity is the claim that Russia’s annexation of Crimea has anything to do with resisting fascism. Even before the annexation local militias were quite effective in keeping Ukrainian ultra-nationalists (and all other ‘Maidanites’) out of the peninsula. If there is a threat of ‘fascism’ in Crimea, it comes from Russian ultra-nationalists – like the men who dress up as Cossacks and whip opponents of the secessionist regime. Such people are also active in the current protests in the cities of Eastern Ukraine against the new ‘Orange’ government. For example, Pavel Gubarev, a leader of the pro-Russian protests in Donetsk, is a former member of the fascist organisation Russian National Unity…”
I have also already suggested a look at our previous thread on the Euromaidan protests and the right-wing threat was not far from our analysis.
I don’t think you bothered because from it I actually posted.
“…Kiev’s parliament is voting on Thursday to establish a National Guard of 20,000 people – recruited from activists involved in the recent pro-Western protests as well as from military academies – to strengthen Ukraine’s defences. Ukraine’s national security chief Andriy Parubiy said the Guard would be deployed to “protect state borders, general security and prevent “terrorist activities”. Reading the above report i foresee that the neo-nazi nationalists will now be legitimised and given weapons. to reinforce their influence against any liberal elements. Official Brownshirts. We now await the SS to be established…”
Again to reiterate your and our big difference.
We say it makes no sense at all to die in a civil war between two equally nationalist bourgeois sides. Both sides are counter-revolutionary as we see it.
You have instead chosen to support Russian Tweedledee against Ukraine’s Tweedledum.
Moderator Notice
Bijou Drain, your complaint has been acted upon.
However, repeating True Scotsman’s offensive language meant I had to edit out your and another poster’s quote.
True Scotsman, please take note of Bijou Drain’s comments.
“in only one are they officially incorporated into the state’s military.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparta_Battalion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusich_Group
A bit more politically bias website
Stepan Bandera’s Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists when Ukraine declared its independence in 1992, reorganized itself as the political party Congress of Ukrainian Nationalists (KUN).
In the 2014 parliamentary election it got less than 9,000 votes, or 0.05% of the 16 million cast.
In the 2020 local elections, it got 0.03% of seats.In most elections, it has run as part of a bloc with other right-wing parties under the Svoboda party’s umbrella, which only got 2.15% in the 2019 parliamentary election (not enough for official party status), and 1.62% for their candidate in the 2019 presidential election (ninth place).
Standard propaganda – demonize the enemy. Romanticise the past
Anarchists have also been appalled by Ukrainian nationalists claiming Mahkno as one of their own
https://www.anarchistfederation.net/nestor-makhno-and-the-ukrainian-revolution/
“the OSCE reported that the shells were overwhelmingly fired from the Ukrainian side.”
Please refer me to your source on who began the firing?
“for peace was genuine on all parts of the Western nation such as the UK’s bellicose pose.” You mean “not” genuine?” My typo
“Ethnic cleansing is considered an act of genocide, no? That is what the Ukrainians had planned.”
Please provide evidence of the ethnic cleansing. Many more re-located to Russia voluntarily in the years from 2014 onwards. Not because of the threat of ethnic cleaning
I have watched some of Lancaster’s videos. Nothing definitive can be claimed in them other than his own interpretation. Would his presence have been permitted if his reporting was anti-separatist?
https://www.vice.com/en/article/wxneb4/ukraine-patrick-lancaster-journalist
Some hard facts
The 1991 independence referendum
Crimea: 54,.2% but an exceedingly low turn-out of 37% so it is questionable if Crimeans supported independence. Not so the other turn-out, about the same as any fair election.
Luhansk: 83.9%
Donetsk: 83.9%
People’s opinions can change and perhaps the later violence would bring a different result.But from all other polls conducted in DPR and LPR the favoured constitutional change was not secession but federalism.
Obliged to read the history of events due to our exchanges, I can only reach the same conclusion as I always had…nationalism is toxic and poisoned the minds of working people. The best thing for an ordinary person to do is to leave the country and the breakaway republics. In my youth I met a number of Northern Irish who felt the same way.
We all know that war creates strange bed-fellow. “My enemy’s enemy becomes my friend”.
Banderite followers have re-surfaced in Ukraine. The Azov battalion rightly has been recognised as possessing neo-nazi roots.
But what about the DPR’s Sparta battalion? What about the Russian Imperial Movement? A commander in the Somalia militia wore SS insignia.
There are many more militias that are extreme right-wing that many would call neo-nazi or neo-fascist
And they formed the government Of DPR. Pavel Gubarev. Alexander Zakharchenko. Igor Girkin.
And what about the foreign cheer-leaders?
Polish neo-fascist group “Falanga”, Italian far-right group “Millennium”, America’s Atomwaffen Division and Germany’s Der Dritte Weg, Finland’s neo-nazi Power Belongs to the People.
In all wars both sides seek to differentiate between the “goodies” and the “baddies”
The SPGB says a plague on both.
I call Donbass “your” link since you refuse to accept any source other than pro-Russian or anti-West. Your rejection of Amnesty International is an example. (Strange when it it agrees with some as in its condemnation of Israel as an apartheid state it is an acceptable source)
OSCE reported that they had free access to inspect the Ukrainian side but were stopped from examining the separatist lines. Who was hiding what?
Your claim is that 125,000 Ukrainian troops were ready to invade. Donbas Insider reports military hardware preparations of an offensive but no mention of troops build-up. A strange omission.
Your claim is that the invasion was a preemptive strike to thwart an imminent intended Ukrainian invasion of separatist positions.
I question that premise. You accept it
But neither you nor I are privy to either side’s intelligence reports. As in all wars, one side blames the other side of starting it. There was an increase in artillery exchanges immediately prior to Russia’s invasion. You suggest it was a softening up preliminary to invasion. Others say it was an attempt by the separatists to provoke Ukraine and create the pretext for Russian intervention.
As you have not challenged the credentials of OSCE, perhaps this statement should be noted
OSCE Secretary General Helga Schmid the Secretary General condemned, in the strongest terms, the Russian military action against Ukraine. “It did not need to be this way. But Russia chose force over dialogue. Dialogue was offered.”I have already conceded that the SPGB accepts that the mediation for peace was genuine on all parts of the Western nation such as the UK’s bellicose pose.
The claim that Ukraine intended genocide against Russian-speakers is also unfounded. The casualty rate of civilians long before the evacuation you cite demonstrates the non-existence of such a policy. The evacuation of civilians had not been anywhere near completed, and many remained if Ukraine chose to deliberately target them.
But let us move on to the other justification of the invasion by Russia. The de-Nazification.
I asked you to identify who those nazis are and to detail their strength.
TM asked for you to define what a nazi means to Russia in the context of this war.
I appreciate as the sole pro-Russian advocate on the forum, you suffer the responsibility to answer your critics.
