alanjjohnstone
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“And they all appeared to have been dead for some time. They had sallow, sunken skin and stiff fingers. I had not seen many bodies before that day, but some of the few I had were recently killed, and they did not look like this.”
https://www.ibtimes.com/bucha-street-filled-bodies-3486975What more can I say?
You are your own expert and nobody can convince you otherwise of your own facts.
Vijay Prashad, political commentator
“Wars are to be opposed and every effort must be made to prevent wars and to end wars. So, to claim that I support the Russian war on Ukraine is against everything that I have said or done on the record. I oppose this war as I oppose every war, which is why I have written – since 2014 – for the need for negotiation and for the need for neighbours to find a way to live with each other…”
So you have x-ray vision now, able to detect the state of the body beneath clothes and the degree of decomposition of the vital organs inside a body. Who is the fool?
Once again, where is your forensic evidence? The UN investigators did have access to medical examinations. French experts were called in also to help determine cause and time of deaths.
I repeat
“A white armband merely signified that you were an unarmed civilian, not your politics.”And the whole point is that unarmed civilians were murdered in a war crime.
Why would the woman interviewed in the ABC news still be wearing her white armband when the Ukrainians were in charge if it depicted a pro-Russian sympathiser
But here is another story
“After the Russian forces took control of Bucha, doctors were required to wear a white bandage in order to leave the hospital, and only during daylight hours and on foot. They were warned that any vehicle could come under fire — even an ambulance.”
About the mayor
“…the mayor published a video on Facebook in which he called March 31 “the day of Bucha’s liberation” and didn’t mention any bodies in the streets. However, contrary to what Russia claims, this video was posted not on March 31 but on April 1 at 6:31 pm local time. As far as I can tell, the first video of corpses in the streets of Bucha was published on Telegram the same day at 6:42 pm and, in the next few hours, several other pictures and videos of similar atrocities were published on social media. In other words, while it’s true that the mayor of Bucha didn’t mention any corpses in the streets in his statement, pictures and videos showing bodies in the streets of Bucha emerged almost immediately after he posted that statement. It would still be weird if Bucha had been liberated on March 31, as the mayor claimed in his statement, yet he didn’t mention the corpses littering the streets in a video he published on April 1, but a closer look at the evidence shows that’s not really what happened.
Indeed, another city official had posted a video on Bucha’s official Facebook page that morning at 10:18 am local time in which he claimed that the city was still occupied, urged residents to be cautious and even mentioned corpses in the streets. Thus, according to that post, liberation was still in progress during the morning of April 1. My guess is that Ukrainian forces started entering the town on March 31, which is why the mayor called it “the day of Bucha’s liberation”, but either there were still Russians at this point or the Ukrainians were not sure yet they were completely gone and didn’t confirm it until April 1. If the Ukrainian forces were still in the process of reoccupying the city on the morning of April 1 and people were not even sure that the Russians were completely gone at that time, it’s not particularly surprising that videos of the massacre didn’t emerge until later that day. It probably means that people were not summarily executed in every part of town, or at least that most of the corpses were brought to just some areas, but this is entirely consistent with the hypothesis that the Russian forces are responsible…”
https://cspicenter.org/blog/waronscience/what-happened-in-bucha/
You of course are required to debunk the satellite images that showed bodies while the Russian were occupying Bucha that later matched up with later pictures taken when Bucha was retaken by Ukraine.
And the witness accounts? All lies?
As with other supposed “proof” of a hoax, the Russian supposed scenarios have been shown to be false such as the moving corpses.
https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-russia-claims-massacre-bucha-staged-ukraine-1694804
So you can judge the time of death and the state of a body from just a simple crude photo. Makes the job of a pathologist rather redundant, don’t you think?
But if you really want to know the time a body takes to decay
Of course, donning a white armband would satisfy any Russian soldier that a local was not a spy or saboteur nosing around their positions.
And of course, any Azov militia would naively and automatically assume that a white armband meant you were a collaborator and pro-Russian, not simply trying to go about the necessity of getting food and water while under occupation.
Azov actually described how Russians made civilians wear white armbands
https://www.pravda.com.ua/news/2022/03/19/7332747/A white armband merely signified that you were an unarmed civilian, not your politics.
“The cloth used to bind the man’s hands appeared to be a white armband. Russian troops, while they were in Bucha, required that local residents wear the armbands to identify themselves, according to one woman who was still wearing hers.”
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/residents-of-bucha-recount-horrors-i-recognized-him-by-his-sneakers/ar-AAVTf7C“… those pictures and videos don’t really allow us to judge the state of the bodies since they are dressed in warm clothes (let alone how stiff they were), so I find this argument totally unconvincing and don’t understand why anyone would take it seriously…”
https://cspicenter.org/blog/waronscience/what-happened-in-bucha/
https://www.bbc.com/news/60907259.amp
“In the hours after death, bodies go through a process called rigor mortis where muscles contract and stiffen. We asked a forensic pathologist for their opinion on whether a body would be expected to be “stiffened” after four days. One who has worked in places including Kosovo and Rwanda on war crimes investigations, who did not want to be named, told the BBC that by four days rigor mortis has “usually subsided”.”
The timeline offered by Russia is disputed
“Russia’s claim it withdrew its forces on March 30 is contradicted by a report in Zvezda TV, a news outlet run by the Russian ministry of defense. Zvezda reported that its forces were conducting “clean up” operations in Bucha on April 1. A day earlier Ukrainian authorities had said that the town was still under Russian control. Imagery of atrocities began to emerge as soon as early as April 1…This undermines the Russian claim that no evidence of atrocities emerged before April 3, and shows the bodies were already present when Ukrainian forces entered the town…”
https://www.businessinsider.com/timeline-disproves-russia-claims-that-bucha-massacre-is-ukraine-hoax-2022-4Does Ukrainian army commit atrocities? Of course and when there is evidence the BBC reports on it.
https://www.bbc.com/news/61025388
https://www.bbc.com/news/60907259.amp“And answer me this. How had the bodies of the civilians in Bucha remained miraculously free of decomposition for over 2 weeks despite the warm weather?”
Once you refer me to the post-mortems and autopsy reports that you appear privy to?
CNN reported
“A CNN team visited the basement and saw the bodies before removal. They were in advanced stage of decomposition.”
https://edition.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-putin-news-04-05-22/h_798231e93dc9fae067f4d4ac8fccd008“…the Guardian, the New York Times, Le Monde, Der Spiegel, and El País collaborated to release excerpts from 250,000 documents obtained by Assange…The editors and publishers of the media organisations that first published those revelations have come together to publicly oppose plans to charge Assange
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2022/nov/28/media-groups-urge-us-drop-julian-assange-charges
As I said, there is no disputing that there was a campaign to discredit Assange and Putin. They did try to divert attention away from them by claiming it was a deliberate Russian hack.
But even the BBC published some of the anti-Clinton info
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-37639370Its critics conveniently forgot that revelations of Putin’s secret wealth came via Wikileaks
“As for the material put out on WikiLeaks regarding the wealth of the Russian prime minister, first of all, it is hard to understand how authentic the wires are…”
https://www.rt.com/russia/dismisses-wikileaks-putin-wealth/
And revelations of Russian corruption
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-11893886Did Russia also hack Clinton? Who really knows? Who really cares?
She has been proven corrupt and the US liberal media revealed themselves as the Clinton lap-dogs as much as Fox and Newsmax were Trump’s.
Wikileaks performed as a conduit for confidential government information and e-mails, that were forwarded and published by the MSM, including the Guardian.
You do understand the difference, don’t you?
And yes, those who wished their secrets to remain secret have been very busy discrediting and persecuting it.
If you click on to this forum’s topic, you will discover many sympathetic posts supporting Julian Assange.
Of those websites that you cite, many of whom our SOYMB blog has also used as sources for various stories, none can be so closely associated with the promotion of the interests of a state power as WOF, a fake fake news checker.
So War on Fakes is credible reputable source?
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/war-on-fakes-bias/
“The fact-checks conducted on the website are often inaccurate… In general, the War on Fakes is a Russian disinformation website that promotes pro-Russian government propaganda.”
“…the website purposefully uses false claims to portray Ukraine in a bad light, while at the same time spreading and substantiating Russian propaganda…”
https://foreignpress.org/news/war-on-fakes-the-fake-fact-checking-website-and-telegram-channel
“…the extreme pro-Russia nationalism consistent in “War on Fakes” is consistent with the deliberately false information in the Russian media. And “War On Fakes” is more than likely directly involved with—if not an actual arm of—the Russian government…”
https://www.insider.com/russian-telegram-channel-war-on-fakes-spreads-disinformation-2022-3
“The War on Fakes channel has repeatedly attempted to push conspiracies that footage from Ukraine is somehow being falsified..”
“War on Fake, which the watchdog says is the latest weapon in Russia’s information warfare arsenal: a website that promotes Russian disinformation through the pretext of combating disinformation.”
I could go on but you simply dismiss as fake news but i will end with this link that specifically calls out you out on Bucha
https://www.politifact.com/article/2022/aug/08/how-war-fakes-uses-fact-checking-spread-pro-russia/
“A review by PolitiFact shows that its “fact-checks” are actually pieces of pro-Russia disinformation packed with falsehoods about the situation in Ukraine.”
Claim: There were no bodies of Ukrainian civilians on the roads of Bucha after Russian forces left the area around March 30. Someone “laid out” the bodies to falsely accuse the Russians of killing civilians. (Both claims from April 4.)
That is wrong. Satellite images reviewed by The New York Times show that bodies had been lying on the streets of Bucha since at least March 11, indicating that they were shot by the occupying Russian forces and not “laid out” after they left the area. Footage has since surfaced showing Russians executing civilians in Bucha.Claim: Bodies of Ukrainian civilians change position in different photographs of Bucha — more evidence that “bodies were arranged” to incriminate Russians. (April 5)
The body of a victim does appear in different positions in images by AP and AFP (graphic imagery), and the body of a victim does disappear in different images by AFP and Reuters (graphic imagery). But that happens because Ukrainian soldiers were moving the bodies off the street, fearing that Russians might have mined them, according to the AP, and because Ukrainian authorities were burying the victims, according to The Washington Post.My own union, the postal workers, was the only trade union to officially endorse GD Cole’s guild socialism, a form of co-operative worker-controlled economy, as being already state-owned and state-controlled they recognised the folly of nationalisation with government departments in charge that the miners and rail workers were all cock-a-hoop about establishing.
Old Labour as a genuine workers’ party with many sincere socialists within it is a prevailing view that exists today and there are some who romanticised it and wish for its return.
Corbyn was perhaps an example some would suggest. But just as the Democratic Party machine sabotaged Bernie Sanders, it was the Labour Party officials that foiled Corbyn albeit with the eager assistance of the media. From the acclaim at the Glastonbury Festival to a backbench pariah outsider. Such a dramatic fall.
But just as Sanders refuses to support a third party and sticks to the Party that betrayed him, Corbyn, too, holds to the forlorn hope of the return of Old Labour despite Starmer-ites have seen that only his loyalists are selected as candidates.
I think the SPGB failed to connect and communicate with the emotion and spirit of working-class awareness, no matter how vague and undefined it manifests itself.
At one time, our masters tried to declare the working class extinct, an outdated concept, we were as they always say in the USA – all middle class. now. Perhaps even class-free.
Now the reality is showing itself, with even the professional workers such as the lawyers forced to strike, obliged to acknowledge their economic status as waged-workers.
The big question is how do we spark the recognition within our fellow workers that real socialism is feasible option for us to choose and strive towards.
Earlier excuses for failure are now gone with the demise of Soviet Union “communism”, the austerity cuts in the Scandinavian-style welfare state, the short-comings of nationalisation. Privatisation is no longer seen as the answer even by many business-orientated commentators. Keynesian and Hayek economists are exposed as charlatans.
And you know what, even with all that, we remain pitifully small and without a voice or presence in the workers’ movements.
The stronger siren calls of the faux socialists are returning – let’s go back to Old Labour and re-nationalise, let’s privatise again but call it a different label, let’s repeat the mistakes of the past.
Sorry for my pessimism, but as Marx said first-time tragedy, second-time farce
And its source – the Venezuelan Orinoco Tribune from April 5th that in turn uses Venezualan Mision Verdad as its source
and Intel Slava Z – an official Russian news agency as its source, and a pro-Russian Russia in Spain April 4 source. Also used is a Russian fact-checker site.Sorry but I prefer sources who actually conducted on-the-ground investigations by professional UN inspectors, not political hacks.
The mayor drove through the streets and reported no corpses. Did you actually click the link given and read the Telegram post where AFP says the streets were littered with corpses?
It claims Azov troops arrived on 1st April yet satellite pictures already showed corpses in the street prior to their alleged arrival. Did you click on the link and read the NYT report? Corpses in the streets.
AS10
also glad to find a new voice on the forumRegards Lenin, there have been two views of him among party members. That he was always a social democrat revolutionary masquerading as a Marxist or that he was a sincere Marxist but had to respond pragmatically to events and conditions he encountered. Our obituary of him was fairly sympathetic
MofA relies on accounts while the fog of war is still thick, mere days after the event. A former Indian ambassador who uses TASS as his source. A cameraman who thinks the video coverage is too “professional”. The accusation it was the Azov Battalion is made with no corroborating evidence, mere assertion.
Who is suppressing the truth?
Moscow city councillor, Ilya Yashin, was sentenced to almost 9 years for spreading “fake news” that occupying Russian forces were responsible for the massacre of civilians in Bucha.
You can ignore the witness testimony given to the UN investigation
https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/2022-12/2022-12-07-OHCHR-Thematic-Report-Killings-EN.pdf
You can ignore the evidence of witnesses and phone intercepts cited in this documentary
https://www.pbs.org/video/crime-scene-buchaafter-zero-tolerance-swnl1v/
It is all fake news, isn’t it?
twc’s last post on the Ragged Trousered Philanthopist was too good to keep on the forum
I have uploaded to our blog
https://socialismoryourmoneyback.blogspot.com/2022/12/songs-of-ragged-trousered.html
SNP to hold Special Conference to discuss and decide the way forward to secure independence in Edinburgh on 19 March
This is an interesting interview with Rebecca E. Karl, of New York University, on the recent protests
The Left Can Support Protesters in China Without Shilling for US Imperialism
“…There are those who believe themselves to be progressive — and proclaim it loudly — but who deny that there is anything untoward happening in Xinjiang to Uyghurs. They deny that the CPC is anything other than marvelously socialist and marvelously humane. They wish to pretend that Chinese capitalist governance is somehow so much better than any other capitalist governance. They proclaim all this in the name of condemning U.S. imperialism. And U.S. imperialism, to be sure, needs to be condemned in the loudest and deepest ways possible. The historic and contemporary treatment by the United States of those within its expansive territorial reach, and of the world’s people more generally, needs to be exposed to every critical denunciation we can muster. Yet that condemnation cannot lead to excusing the CPC from responsibility for the brutality of treatment of Uyghurs (and Tibetans, and others) today.
Capitalism is brutal no matter who practices it. For me, this is simply a principle of progressivism: We cannot relativize our view so as to erase the problems we don’t wish to see. That is simply ignorance and betrayal…”“…Xi Jinping is not a socialist; he is not a communist in any real sense of the concept, even if he is the leader of the Communist Party of China. Xi Jinping is a nationalist Chinese capitalist, who appears not to blink at destroying the possibilities of others’ lives in order to maintain his power and the rising supremacy of the Chinese nation-state. His desires are not so very different from those of many of our governing leaders in the Euro-American world, even if our leaders’ desires must be framed in different language and through different political rhetoric, at least for the time being. It is their similarities, not their differences, that will tell of the future…”
I had a quick look at your website and was pleased that you chose humour as your communications vehicle. I will take a deeper look when I have more time on hand.
Despite the reputation of the left as having the funnier stand-up comedians, we need far more to ridicule this farcical social order we live under.
Perhaps a special topic – socialist satire – can be started to join our music and movie threads.
