Zeitgeist candidate for mayor in New Zealand
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Looks like somebody has jumped the gun and started.QUOTATION FUNCTION ON MOST WEB FORUMS OPEN HERE >>"Ozymandias" is a sonnet written by the English romantic poet Percy Bysshe Shelley (1792–1822)<< QUOTATION FUNCTION ON MOST WEB FORUMS (APART FROM THIS DUMBO ONE) CLOSE
Hmmm – I've just read several pages of WSM/SPGB philosophy – and it's pretty much identical to what I've written describing TZM/TVP.You even describe yourself as a community which gets minds up to the point of transition, but don't yourselves specify the engineering of global society post-transition … … so we're on the same page.You guys will succeed and be lost, just as TZM/TVP succeeds and is lost as a movement.As such there's no need for a movement (our 2 movements) when all people subscribe."The World Socialist Movement sees its function as the proliferation of socialist ideas and the dissemination of structural analyses and critiques of capitalism, as well as to correct misconceptions regarding socialism and to make people aware of the structural issues inherent to capitalismwhile facilitating open debate regarding the future organization of a post-capitalist society.[1]"~ie~Education TZM/TVP-*-Do smelly socialists not have the ability to highlight text in colour or use quotation boxes ?I don't know – backwards lot.Ooooo smilies ! supported in the next world.-*—- Summary —politics -> science -> artPolitics – getting your head around equality by arguing with people who want inequality (Captain Capitalist and his Craving Cronies (boo!!!))Science – mechanism of transitionArt – living out one's life in safety composing poems to the beauty of little flowersPolitics diesScience diesArt lives – a life spent aiming for quality of sensory experience.Scouring Earth's surface for pretty pink flowers called Gertrude which serve as one's personal muse.
Hi SB_UKYour earlier posts were interesting as they conveyed a sense of enthusiasm and inquiry. Unfortunately your recent posts come across as almost pure random nonsense.We are more than willing to engage and discuss our ideas with you, as TZM has many similarities with our socialist ideas and aims, but it would be a lot easier with out needless confusion and randomness.
OK – in summary:Politics – discussion about what is and what isn't moral.Science/Technology – an understanding of reality and a solution to man's technical issues pertaining to living a moral existence.— Both ending — giving way to:Art – living life for exquisite sensory experiences.-*-Now going back to Brian's initial comment – we're looking at a simple evolutionary change in man relating to people acquiring morality (true) as determinant of action.What do we have to do ? Talk sense until all people are united in the single (only) cause of living a meaningful life.At the moment – living life is like waiting for a bus – you can't do anything for the damage that you cause – any and everything undertaken within a global capitalist infrastructure is wrong.
SB_UK wrote:OK – in summary:Politics – discussion about what is and what isn't moral.Science/Technology – an understanding of reality and a solution to man's technical issues pertaining to living a moral existence.— Both ending — giving way to:Art – living life for exquisite sensory experiences.-*-Now going back to Brian's initial comment – we're looking at a simple evolutionary change in man relating to people acquiring morality (true) as determinant of action.What do we have to do ? Talk sense until all people are united in the single (only) cause of living a meaningful life.At the moment – living life is like waiting for a bus – you can't do anything for the damage that you cause – any and everything undertaken within a global capitalist infrastructure is wrong.In an effort to keep this discussion on track my initial comment touched on the issue of TZM not seeing the necessity for a political challenge to bring about a society based on production for use and free access."I suspect the reason he stood on the Resource Based Economy ticket which TZM advocate was to get free publicity for the idea. Much like us in that respect. However, because TZM are strictly arguing for a change in values to bring about the necessary changes in capitalism they have unfortunately dumped all political dialogue in the waste basket labeled 'party political activity'.Although their members have a free hand to stand in elections they are not encouraged to do so for they see no need for a political challenge being organised by the 99% to bring about a revolutionary transformation in the ownership of the means of living.According to TZM the necessary changes in values are brought about by an evolutionary process and not a revolutionary process. I have yet to figure out how they reached this conclusion when history explains otherwise."The rambling nature of your postings not only illustrate but also confirms that most supporters of TZM fail to understand the revolutionary transformation from one mode of production to another consists of politcal, economic, social and cultural changes in how society produces and distributes human needs. These four factors is part of a process called 'Social Evolution' in the sense of an historical pattern emerging which outlines how this process is completed to bring about the required changes.TZM see no need to include the 'political factor' which means in effect they have decided to ignore any conflict between the state and the majority of society. This functionalist perspective presumes a change in values is all that's required when historically the evidence points in the opposite direction.For the basis of class rule is control of the decision making process aka the state machinery who determines that profit is a priority over human needs.In short: Equality for all requires a political solution and to ignore this you do so at your peril.
What is a political solution ?You need people to agree that global equality is a good idea.Then you need a technical roadmap to support global equality.Science and Technology (actually respectively on those two fronts) can get us to that world without politics.Science (physics and psychology) teaches us what really matters.Engineering allows us to manifest a world which will support what really matters.Politics is a complete waste of time.Why do visionaries like Alan Moore describe freedom fighters blowing up legal / governmental establishment Institutions ?Politics and the legal establishment are a major part of the problem – and I'd argue more so than money.
SB_UK wrote:Politics and the legal establishment are a major part of the problem – and I'd argue more so than money.In that case, all the more need to win control of political power and dismantle it. So that those who currently control it can't use it to resist the establishment of a world community based on the Earth's resources being the common heritage of all and which will make money redundant.
SB_UK,I am curious as to how the majority of the worlds poulation will take control of the worlds resources without some form of mass organisation?Will capitalism and its protectors (governments) just relinquish their ownership and control of the worlds resources because of a change of heart, a realisation that it's the right thing to do?The only way for the majority of the worlds population to control the worlds resources in a sustainable way for the benefit of humanity, is for them to take ownwership and control away from the capitalist minority. That will require organisation and democratic participation on a scale never before seen. As such politics can not be avoided.
But capitalism is a state of mind which we need to overcome.If you take away ownership from one horrible lot of 0.01 percenters – it'll just be passed into tomorrow's 0.01 percenters.What we need is an education driven evolutionary event in which people think to themselves – actually having a 0.01 percent of people playing us like chess pieces isn't what we want.The individual needs to be appalled at the idea of a 0.01 percent – not secretly wish to be a part of the 0.01 percent.You can't take the power away from an elite – all people need to want to be a part of distributed (globally) power.This isn't an option in politics – which more or less stands – for one group of individuals trying to make out that you'll be better off if you follow them rather than the other lot.The basic argument of SPGB/WSM is that you'll be better off without anybody telling you what to do – but that's not nor will ever be an option in a political system which is predicated on a few (generally double thinking positive cognitive dissonance deprecated) people telling you what to do.
But capitalism is a state of mind which we need to overcome.Anyone for mass hypnotism then?"The basic argument of SPGB/WSM is that you'll be better off without anybody telling you what to do – but that's not nor will ever be an option in a political system which is predicated on a few (generally double thinking positive cognitive dissonance deprecated) people telling you what to do."One problem, the basic argument of the SPGB/WSM is an administration of things, not people. There is no way you can tell a "class conscious majority" what to do and that is what is needed to bring about World Socialism! It is the Capitalist system where a "few" tell the "many" what to do. You can't take the power away from an elite – all people need to want to be a part of distributed (globally) power.Hey SP, ALB, Gnome, DJP, Northern Light, do you all " need to want to be a part of distributed (globally) power"? I don't, so not "all people" need this. So your premis is a lame duck before you even start, friend! To put it mildly but not meant, unkindly, your argument is contradictory and moreover, "nonsense".
"I am curious as to how the majority of the worlds poulation will take control of the worlds resources without some form of mass organisation?"Who voted for the internet ?Wikipedia is a collection of the world's resources – far more important than any lump of coal or diamond.Politics no longer matters – just a stage we were going through.
The basic idea is that either no or all people control the power which is in the hands of the few currently.So – by none or all – we can either suggest that the world is owned by everyone equally or no-one at all.Which places responsibility for things into the hands of all or none ie 'global distribution of power' both in contrast to few.
Mass hypnotism would be required if what was being discussed was not the most rational (only rational) approach.At some point people will realise that handing over personal autonomy to others is a form of slavery ie that all forms of organization controlled by an elite (government, law, corporation) are responsible (each in turn) for some variation on slavery – if they exert any power over our daily lives – which law, government, money and corporation most certainly do.Only a form of voluntaryism can work – where co-operatives which we all sign up to supply absolute (not that we have many) human needs.Yes – that's Prince Charles' botty you'll see peeking out of its pants over on a building site in the coming egalitarian world – and proud he will be of the zero energy building he has contributed to the construction of.
The basic reason why there is no further need for any political action is that you'll find that all people who think about the problem will come to the same conclusion.I don't particularly care for or against the SPGB/TZM world – it's just (and simply) the only option.So – simply allow people to arrive at this conclusion for themselves and 'bingo' Prince Charles will be down the building site toning his glutes. He'll be fine in his 2 bed semi– and Camilla will be taken with his new muscular form. "Everyone's a winner" – which could become a TZM/SPGB catchphrase.
SB_UKThe very act of persuading people to recognise a need or benefit from switching from todays minority owned and controlled economic system, capitalism, to a system the WSM/SPGB/TZM advocate, is political in nature. In essence all the WSM/SPGB do is explain to people who are interested, how the current system, capitalism, operates and then offers a solution or if you prefer, a vision of what society could be.The politics comes because of the need to persuade people to relinquish their force fed, distorted view of the way society functions today. A lot of people know something is not right about the way society operates, but can't quite see exactly what it is and ens up falling for the same old lie that governments work in the interest of us all. "Things may not be perfect," they bleat "but there's no alternative.". This is very much the case in Britain today.The WSM/SPGB also have to work against the dream machinery of capitalism. The government lies and distortion, the media lies and distortion and to a lesser extent (regarding influence) in the West, religious lies and distortion. That is no easy task. Without coherent organisation we simply won't break through the highly organised capitalist structure. Try bringing up the idea of a moneyless society of common ownership and most people think you're a crank. It's a hard nut to crack. If it wasn't we would already be living in a socialist world, given that the SPGB/WSM has been on about it for over a hundred years.You say "all people who think about the problem will come to the same conclusion.". If that is the case how do you explain the former Soviet Union, China and the like? What about the myriad of political reformist parties and groups out there who think capitalism can be tinkered with to make it work fairer? Thinking people thought that load of crap up and thinking people still slurp it up. How do you explain the lack of epiphanies?
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