Zeitgeist candidate for mayor in New Zealand
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"Much more constructive is to confront capitalism"Sadly – capitalism gains its strength from whether the individual (whether poor or rich) desires money/power.Capitalism is an expression of an inner motivation (which can be overcome) of the individual to acquire money, power, stuff etc … …It's the individual's motivation towards money and power which we as a society of individuals need to get over – rather than a capitalist ruling class.Sadly the poor which desire to be rich (ie to abuse the poor) are just as bad as the rich who are currently enjoying the 'benefits' (rentier capitalism) of the abuse.Think of all the poor who're desperate to win the lottery – the morality of them then entering the controlling capitalist class does not occur to them; I'd argue that the true spirit of an individual who follows our principles is to reject money – to reject any aspect of society which keeps human beings in a hierarchy in which the lower tiers suffer – see eg 'why equal societies do better' by Wilksinson and Pickett.ps I've changed the title (just a little) on purpose.And – I'm fairly sure that there's likely to be a high percentage of multi-generational wealth which does not have the love of money/power. Characterizing it as rich versus poor isn't fair – it's more individual trying to get over his/her own lesser motivation towards beating down their fellow man (and acquiring more of a limiting resource).Now – is a simple lifestyle the solution ?No – we can have the most amazing high tech WSM/TZM/TVP/SPGB world – but my personal obserrvation is that I'm happy with only 1 thing.And that's the sun.Who'd be in England as the weather turns !!
So just coming back to Brian and Alb's points.The SPGB/WSM has struggled for 100 years – a period in which people have gradually awakened to the need for global equality, partly because of the efforts of political activism.The battle is close to won – and now you need a transition – which is where TZM fits in.We don't need to fight for people to realise that equality globally is the right thing – you guys have done all of that for us.We just need to make it happen ie boring practicalities.So – criticising TZM for lack of political presence isn't entirely fair – we're (like an engineering department) just interested in the nuts and bolts of making it happen.Whether it should happen is where the left vs right warfare of the last 100 years has been fought – and it's really so unsurprising that the left or global equality was (eventually!) going to win – a victory which was catalysed by technology.The Internet must be credited.-*-I think that many of us are about to enter a period of uncertainty – there won't be any need for any people who don't work voluntarily for the public good or at least by the motto 'do no harm' – so a global voluntaryist society awaits … … where people work because it brings them pleasure to benefit the lives of others — unimaginable huh ? but all the more bizarre – I can't imagine any other alternative.The all too popular image of mankind blowing themselves up through nuclear warfare is just silly.
SB_UK wrote:Capitalism is an expression of an inner motivation (which can be overcome) of the individual to acquire money, power, stuff etcNo it isn't. Capitalism is a society where nearly everything people need to live and enjoy life a bit has to be bought. Hence, the need to acquire money — for all but the rich who already have plenty of it. Most do this by going out and selling their working energies for a wage or salary to some employer. A few chose to steal or swindle. But, given capitalism and its nature, it is normal that people should seek to acquire money., not to become rich but to survive and getter a better life if possible. Most people in fact want more to avoid falling into poverty than to become filthy rich. We can't, and socialists don't, criticise them for this. After all, we too are obliged to do it.
SB_UK wrote:It's the individual's motivation towards money and power which we as a society of individuals need to get over – rather than a capitalist ruling class.THis follows from your premise above but since the premise is mistaken so is your answer. Capitalism is a system of society based on a minority owning and controlling the means of wealth production and where production is geared to making a profit. This minority ownership is backed up by the power of the state through laws, police, courts, prisons and in the end the armed forces. This is why, if we are to transfer ownership and control from the minority ruling class to the community as a whole and make them the common heritage of all (the aim of Zeitgeist as well as us), it is necessary to take political control from them. This does mean a violent insurrection but, since what we want can only come about with majority agreement, support and participation, the political action can be democratic and essentially peaceful.To ignore the fact that the minority owning class control political power would be foolish and risk the changeover being a lot more messy than it need be.Anyway, what's so wrong with majority, democratic, peaceful political action via the ballot box and elected parliaments?
Adam, I think you made an unintentional error here,
ALB wrote:This does mean a violent insurrection but, ……I think you meant to say "doesn't" I note with interest SB_UK's boiling it down to some human weakness for wealth. A strange idea for a supporter of TZM, as I don't think I've heard Peter Joseph expressing such a notion.
SocialistPunk wrote:I note with interest SB_UK's boiling it down to some human weakness for wealth. A strange idea for a supporter of TZM, as I don't think I've heard Peter Joseph expressing such a notion.Having been a visitor to the TZM Facebook page for some time now I can safely say that 'supporters' of TZM have all manner of strange ideas…
All that TZM really stands for in 1 or 2 words is pushing past money/legal system and to generate a global society in which all people are at liberty to be whatever they desire.Equality is a good way of putting it.Or perhaps making equality work – as we've a technical task in front of us to shift from a world in which most is owned by the few to a world in which all is owned by the global collective.The core part of TZM is that people are dragged in the wrong direction (towards desiring money/power ie being a typical capitalist) by life in current society – and that if we change societal structure that people will naturally travel in the opposite direction.So from good capitalistless in a capitalist infrastructure to good SPBGgers in a world without money/legal system/government etc … … now as it relates to human weakness – the fact that society ***CAN*** shift human beings into being 'good' capitalists (nasty people who desire nothing more than to eat the heads of all-comers) is (obviously!!) a weakness… … one which a global social societal structure (exactly as envisaged by SPGB) can prevent.If you like – consider the weakness 'original sin' – there's obviously something wrong with people in that human beings knowingly engage in acts which the individual absolutely knows are immoral.To anybody with a mind – the knowing engagement in immoral behaviours should be off limits.
Now what's wrong with doing it by elections ie the standard way ?Well – there's no alternative to global equality.There may be some decisions to be made – but they'll all be technical and can be sorted by techno-types pre-calibrated to select the best possible solution.Problem with 'money/power' world is that the optimal solution is not selected – what's selected is the system which you've control over … .. .discard money/power (the love/desire of money/power) and the desire for collaborative elegance will shine forth.An insight into how techno types operate can be found in CERN.There was no adversarial approach – just a collaborative thrust which succeeded … … this spirit can be the world's given an elimination of money, power, legal system, government etc … … …
SB_UK wrote:There may be some decisions to be made – but they'll all be technical and can be sorted by techno-types pre-calibrated to select the best possible solution.What makes you assume and conclude that all decisions will be of a technical nature? Does this mean that even policy decisions are not even considered to be of any importance for they will also be "sorted by techno-types pre-calibrated to select the best possible solution"?
Human beings, to me, are not materialists. If one claims they are, then this means "every human", must follow this pattern! As a "human", I can truthfully and unequivocally state, I am not a materialist. I do not desire more and ever more material possessions. I desire food, enough to feed myself and my family. I desire clothing, enough to cloth myself and my family. I desire, or should I say, hope for, shelter and heating and lighting, in line with my and my familys needs. No more, nor less.To those who state, we are greedy and selfish, I am a prime example, that we are not.Steve Colborn.
"All decisions of a technical nature"WSM has assisted in the process of helping people to realise that we need global unity.TZM/TVP aims to identify the technological solutions to make that world work; so we're a by~definition science/technical movement – by that we've a defined goal which we must achieve for which we need an engineered solution.And then it's up to people (all equal) in that sustainable global environment to make their own decisions ie TZM/TVP dies with specification of the foundations of a globally sustainable / equality of all man world.In that world – all that man need do is be the best they'd like to be (collaboratively).-*-We can talk (politics) about the need for equality – but I think we're close to past the need for talk – and in the midst of the need for specification of action.But if you were to press me – we've actually specified most of the technological solutions.The only technological problem which remains is the internet access device … … maybe what to do with all of the various unrecycleable 'things' (eg cement) which human beings have introduced onto the planet. It's interesting that many of the problems I'm suggesting that sci/tech solves were actually created by sci/tech in the first place – emphasising the need to get the sci/tech solutions (rather than the talking) right.-*-So – the vision of SPGB will be realised (it's the only imaginable specification for the future) – but I see the change occurring without SPGB having to contest an election.If people wanted to make the case for money/globalization/capitalism trascending politics/nation/legal system as a precursor to the global unity which WSM desires – then I'd certainly be open to that idea; the point I'm making is that the existence of nation and politics are intertwined – it's ever so hard to break down the nation whilst retaining politics.So – Europe attempts it – but where European parliament attempts a dissolution in national boundaries so do we see a resurgence in nationalism (UKIP) when people begin to suffer; sadly people don't see that it's not actually loss of nation state which is responsible for the recession – but the *global* recession is caused by the decreasing rate of human population growth.People are just doing what people do – good when UK out of Europe, bad when UK in Europe – therefore good if UK departs Europe … … the logic is deeply flawed.So – I'd suggest that globalization was driven by the need to transcend national politics ie that the majority of political systems (and political power players) fight for the retention of nation states – for without them, they themselves lose power; where we're back (once again) to the nature of the love/desire of money/power and how this (a human motivation which may be fed [in a capitalist societal infrastructure] or extinguished [in a SPGB infrastructure]) … …or simply politics (with the exception of SPGB/WSM which places emphasis on W) is the problem which globalization needed to circumvent prior to a fair global organizational structure being welcomed. In that organizational structure – there will be nobody with more money/power than anybody else – because (as TZM describes) – there will be no money / legal system / exclusive ownership of anything limiting.
"To those who state, we are greedy and selfish, I am a prime example, that we are not."Just copying from the post above."where we're back (once again) to the nature of the love/desire of money/power and how this (a human motivation which may be fed [in a capitalist societal infrastructure] or extinguished [in a SPGB infrastructure]) … …"The point being that life in a capitalist structure enriches for people who're selfish/greedy (for the majority) in a world where money is an absolute pre-requisite for survival.I'd probably argue that all people who use money are selfish/greedy.So – for instance – imagine selling up everything you have and going to live in a slum for the rest of your life.The vast amount of money which we'd all raise and could give away to making the lives of MANY people better – places our decision to stay in the relative comfort of England – a selfish decision.It's impossible to characterize anybody with any more than the lowest standard of living as not being selfish – because their lives (all of our lives in the rich world) could make the lives fo people in poor places immeasurably better.Note – this isn't an attack on you – I live in a mighty crumbling ex-council house which is worth a silly amount of money also.
TZM/TVP – then as a scientific analysis of human psychology, and a technical specification of a SPGB/WSM friendly world.There's nothing very challenging about it.We simply aim to answer the question- Why don't people do the right thing ?(eg see above post) and when people seek to do the right thing,- How do we change to a world in which the right thing is possible ?(elimination of money, legal system and a global organization without human hierarchy employing intelligent tech.).As mentioned above – you're up against a losing fight if you want to engage in politics – because of the symbiotic relationship between politics and nation state – and the need to transcend nation state in order to arrive at globbal unity.Emphasising the point that SPGB do have WSM – but where for the most part – politics is a variation of UKIP's 'Little Englanders' – "let's hope for a time when Britain is Great once more".That time has come and gone and wasn't very nice for all of the various places which had to suffer in order to swell the ego of this country.
The electorate votes for what's best for them, not for what's best for the planet.When the majority watch sporting events – they don't want the guy who has tried hardest to win – they want some guy who wears their colours to win a medal.All around us – there's a clear discrepancy between people wanting what's best for their local and *not* their global system – and politics supports retention in the 'local' rather than 'global' mindset.What's best for the local (capitalism) is not best for the global (Occupy movement) – the 0.01% have what's best for 'local' – but it's not consistent with the 99.99% 'global' set.No problem with 'Local' in context of 'Global' but not 'Local' without consideration of (the needs of) 'Global'.
SocialistPunk wrote:Adam, I think you made an unintentional error here,ALB wrote:This does mean a violent insurrection but, ……I think you meant to say "doesn't"
Thanks. Of course. Hope it wasn't a Freudian slip.
Reading this just depresses me. It reminds me of the hopeless fantasies of that guy from the "Socialist Centre" in India. Clearly your'e never going to attract TZMers to think about joining the WSM. I used to view TZM with real hope but I think apart from popularising the idea of a moneyless society it has also filled workers minds with a whole new set of delusions. A whole new set of entanglements and problems to try and iron out. What a fuckin mess we are in.
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