WSM/SPGB – SOCIALISM AND RELIGION

[Paul Scivier]

I am new to this forum, and indeed to the WSM/SPGB as a body which i knew little of. Having stumled across it on the web, I have found that the ideas for which i believe, are shared by WSM/SPGB with one exception. I do beleieve that a classless,stateless, wageless,moneyless society based upon the common( not state) ownership and democratic control of the means of life, can be achieved, and should be, using the parliament at the vehicle. Until this point, most anarcho- libertarian socialist writings seems to suggest that only a violent overthrow of the system will lead to a new society, and parliamentary means be avoided.I have long held the view that you cant have a peaceful society founded on a violence, and that a majority of the population would have to agree it. Any minority vanguard would by definition not be accepted as legitimate by a majority.

I can subscribe to the  Declaration of Priciples, and aims and objectives of WSM/SPGB. However on the WSM website are the "Claims" that WSM make. One such "Claim"  is the claim that religion is incompatible socialism. When I sent my point of view to WSM, I was advised of the opportunity to use this forum, hence this post.

It would seem that to have a faith somehow excludes one from  joining WSM as that would be incompatible. It does in  my view depend on what you mean by religion. Some might take the view that a "Marxist" who follows everything Marx said is being religous in that they are following a person ans a set of ideas. For someone like me, who at 62 years, has a faith in both real socialism and one of its original exponents, Jesus the nazarene, I see no incompatability on the contrary.

I am told that my faith is at variance with scientific knowledge, but i would disagree. I believe in a genesis evolution that refers to light exsiting prior to the universe appearing at the big bang,This has been verified by a Noel Prize winner in the last 40 years. Science believs before proof too- quarks are believed and accepted by scientists but have not been seen. There are many other examples, the point being what is that to do with real socialism? Well, 8,000 yeqars ago in Deutoronomic history we see scripture,( Book of judges), that stated " a human king will only lead to militarism, conscription and taxation" – a call for no leadership?

In WSM litereture I have seen  a reference to the Peasants revolt of 1381 in which John Ball is quoted.

 What was missing from that quote was the Lollard John Ball quote " When Adam delved and Eve Span, where was the getleman?" The point being that from time immemorial there was no " master" or "gentleman" in society. In 1652, Gerard Winstanley published " The Law of Freedom in a Platform", in which he discussed the concept of Universal Reconciliation", something I subscribe too, and a topic for another time.In his writings he stated that " all property and wages should be abolished"

Both John Ball and Gerard Winstanley were  both calling for real socilaism long before marx,and the word socilaism existed, and both followed the teachings of Jesus the nazarene. 

There are many others like me who find no home in orhtodox christian communities , because of our real socialism, and no home in real socialist communities, because of our faith. 

Someting wrong there dont you think?

[DJP]

Paul Scivier wrote:

Someting wrong there dont you think?

No.Paul, it's time to stop believing in the tooth fairy.

[jondwhite]

You could try the Quakers

[ALB]

Paul Scivier wrote:

In WSM litereture I have seen  a reference to the Peasants revolt of 1381 in which John Ball is quoted. What was missing from that quote was the Lollard John Ball quote " When Adam delved and Eve Span, where was the getleman?"

Can't have been this, then:http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/socialist-standard/2000s/2004/no-1204-december-2004/book-reviewsor this:http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/socialist-standard/2010s/2014/no-1314-february-2014/book-reviews-poor-mans-heaven-state-capitalism-a

Paul Scivier wrote:

Both John Ball and Gerard Winstanley were  both calling for real socilaism long before marx,and the word socilaism existed, and both followed the teachings of Jesus the nazarene.

In those days, all ideas were and , on pain of death, had to be expressed in religious terms. Actually, Winstanley was as near to a materialist as you could then have publicly become. More a pantheist than an orthodox christian.These days, three and half centuries later,  we can express ourselves in secular terms.

[alanjjohnstone]

Just how important and relevant to your life is your religious philosophy, Paul? What bearing does it have on your daily life?Does it have an effect on your work, on your relationships, on your life-style? Can you go about your day-to-day business without it?  Does your "religion" have any actual influence over you?…Does your "God" talk to you…do you "talk" to him?Is it necessary for your religious faith to follow certain rites and ceremonies? Just how religiously observant do you need to be? If you had an accident tomorrow and the head injury impacted upon your brain's memory, a partial amnesia that often occurs with such injuries, and you forgot everything that you had read or been told about religion, would that make you a lesser person for it? Or would you still be Paul Scivier and continue enjoying the things you enjoy without guilt or regret? What i am suggesting by these questions is if your ideas on religion hold no power over you, then why not simply put them aside, forget them entirely, leave these theories you hold on the origin of life and what's after death to speculative meanderings of the mind once you have had a few beers or spliffs and instead work for a cause that would change your life for the better and improve it for all others.If you think some verses or parables in the Bible, or Koran, or the Vedas or from any other religious canon, adds to the case for socialism, by all means quote them in your discussions. Many works of many religion express certain truths of community that socialists accept and seek, what is called the "golden rule"…"do unto others as you have them do unto you".Socialists often use the imagery of poetry or the message in various literature to explain why we want to establish it.  But it will not be through religious persuasion or adoption of any religion that socialist society will be achieved but by political action, not prayer.  

[rodshaw]

It's impossible to prove the lack of existence of a god. Similarly, if I believe in a fairy at the bottom of my garden, nobody can prove it isn't there.A few points to consider, though.Believing in something, however passionately, although it may make you feel better about the world and your position in it, doesn't make it true. I would say the existence of a god or an afterlife can be speculation at most.What form does your faith take? Do you go to church? Do you believe in heaven as well as God? What about the soul?Does a stone go to heaven when it’s crushed? Or a house when it's demolished? What about a woodlouse or a dog? Did Neanderthal man? Do any of them have souls? If not, at what stage of evolution did the soul come into being, and what is it?Are the people who died before Christianity saved? Where are they? Are the Vikings still in Valhalla or did they get a transfer to heaven?Why can a person who has had a religious revelation never get anyone else to corroborate it?  Catholics weren’t allowed to eat meat on certain days of the week. Then on Fridays only. Then they were. God’s will is continuously being re-invented by humans (what happened to the Divine Right of Kings?) So why not the same for God himself?  God does not appear in any mathematical equation or scientific formula that I'm aware of, and belief in one is not necessary to explain the physical workings of the world. Or, for that matter, to explain human creativity and invention. So why bother? And even if there were a supreme creator/prime mover, a head honcho manifesting itself variously in all these religions, alone or with a host of cherubs and angels, why should anyone love it, worship it or want to do its will? 

[Dave B]

What is the point of a straw man attack on orthodox Christianity when the poster implies he isn’t one? Were not Stalin, Pol Pot and Lenin Marxists and communists? We could start off with something simple like. Paul Scivier; do you believe in a non interventionist god, or in other words does the universe unfold according to immutable  physical laws and are humans ultimately responsible for their own socio-economic situation and ‘history’?   

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