WSM Forum

[Anonymous]

I disagree. On a forum like this, ignorance can work to a degree, i.e. someone posts a thread of no interest, hence no replies and the topic becomes forgotten. On the WSM Yahoo style of forum, the subjects get circulated and it is very easy therefore to become disruptive, which seems to be exactly what has happened whereby one or two individuals with more time than sense can flood the board with nonsense arguments and this puts other contributors off. Modertaion is required then to ensure the discussion as it is flows. Moderation is not censorship if used correctly and even on this style of forum it is very easy for individuals to become disruptive.The forum, as I understand it, is here to promote relevant discussion and interest in, and the dissemination of, socialist princilples and ideas. Also to promote the World Socialist Movement and to encourage participation in the global movement for socialism, and nothing else. It is not a general talking shop, a general debating society or a general forum or specialised in any other area. As such, sometimes topics which do not fulfill this role should be subject to balanced moderation when required.

[robbo203]

OK look here’s how I think it is.
 
First of  all I can understand totally the kind of reaction that some comrades here have expressed in relation to the likes of Tet and McDonagh seeking to hog the discussion on the WSM with their utter inanities.  Particularly the latter who must  surely count as serious candidate for the most insufferable bore in the entire history of this planet, commencing with the neolithic period.  Part of my motivation for engaging with these people has been a determination on my  part that these people should not hog the discussion or that their crappy nonsensical  free market nonsense should not be given free rein to dominate the discussion
 
Here I am talking from bitter experience.  Adam suggested I go off and create a forum in which  to engage these  individuals in debate rather than on the WSM forum.  Well you know what, Adam? Thats already been tried. In WIC we had such a forum. It was called WICOPENDEBATE of which I was moderator . It was more or less completely dominated by Mr Donut in the end.   Everyone lost interest and did what some here advised  FInally the WIC group decided it had  to close down the forum as it was not serving the purpose for which it was intended . It had become a mouthpeice for the mad marketeer and little else.
 
This is what made  me resolve  that Im fucked if I  am going to let these idiots do the same with the WSM. OK, so  Im not a member of the WSM  anymore but I do find it a little surprising that it should be a non member who seems to have taken up a more resolute and determined stance on the question of the WSM forum than most members. See,   I have been following the discussion on the WSM forum over on SPOPEN , Adam, in which you talk of being “stabbed in the back” by a fellow member  (Alan).  I know exactly how that feels when after all the effort Ive made to defend the socialist position on the WSM forum and to promote the WSM on other forums like REVLEFT that I should then learn that a member of the WSM  – namely yourself – can even think in terms of suspending me from the forum for “feeding the trolls”.as someone put it  A very comradely gesture, I must say, and my back is still suffering from the open wound inflicted
 
As I see it you guys  have but 2 options
1) Expel people like Tet and the Donut from the forum.  This could be problematic unless you were to democratically redefine the terms of reference of the forum itself.  For example, in WiC we have 2 forums – previously 3.  One is for WiC members only- the COMMONER forum , the second is for individuals who percieve themselves to belong to the non market anti statist sector – the WORLDINCOMMON forum . And the third is – was –  was the no-holds-barred-completely-open-to-all WICOPENDEBATE forum.  What you could do is to make the WSM forum something like the WORLDINCOMMON  forum but bear in mind what that would entail.  Not only would it entail preventing mad marketeers from entering the forum but also mild mannered but somewhat confused reformists of all stripes as well as your basic Trot or Leninst type.  If you dont want to debate with such people thats fine but be aware what all this means is all Im saying.
 
 
2)  Allow people like Tet and the Donut to remain but  develop a strategy to effectively counter their disruptive interventions (incidentally I do wish  people would stop putting the likes of  Bob Howes or Nick Tapping in the same boat as Tet and Donut –  they are nothing like them even if some of Bob’s ideas are distinctly dotty – like the circle city idea). Let me say staight away that debating with people about  free market ideas is NOT a diversion from the socialist case.  Ive noticed this objection coming up time and time again  but it is simply not true.  Get this idea out off your head once and for all.  Actually , to the contrary, I strongly maintain that arguments like the Economic Calculation Argument are an extremely useful heuristic tool  with which  develop and build upon the case for socialism.  Dealing with it  enables us to call into question  all those kinds of ill- informed claims one keeps hearing such as that socialism would be some massively inefficient bureaucratic  nightmare and so on  – claims that in truth apply rather to market capitalism
 
But how to develp a strategy to counter theanarcho-caps?  Well for a start I dont think Paul’s suggestion would do much good – that we only post on, and respond to,  subjects unrelated to the ideas of the mad marketeers. This is running away from an argument rather than confronting it. It comes across as weak kneed and ineffectual in face of the brazen claims made by the latter. It suggests that we have no argument that we can make against them when we most  certainly have.
This is what I suggest and here Ive learnt from my own experience of dealing with the likes of Donut – donrt respond to their  repetitive nonsense directly.  In Donut’s case there is absolutely no point – I am now firmly convinced – becuase the guy is simply incapable or actually engaging with anyone else’s argument.  What you might want to do instead is just post something that counters the free market arguments without entering into a discussion with or even referring to the exponents of these arguments on the forum itself. This is the indirect option
Another option is to directly deal with and refer to the arguments presented by the mad marketeers but to dpo so in a manner that deals with  them in bite sized bits,  one at a time,  in a coldly factual sort of way.  An excellent example of this is Bill’s davastating point about Inca society. You can tell it completely phased the Donut who didnt know how to respond to it, kept promising he would  but then conveniently dropped the subject  . An accumulation of highlly effective little posts like this will do wonders to convey the impression to the casual visitor that the case for socialism is vastly more compelling and logically argued than the crap thrown at it by the mad marketeers.Its what I call the “hollowing out “strategy. You nibble away in incremental fashion  at the individual propositions from within, forcing their proponents to attend to these  and bringing about the subsequent collapse of the whole surperstructure thereafter – at least in the eyes of the onlooker – when it comes to be seen as being based on a series of claims each of which is utterly lacking in credibility. Once the props fall one by one, the argument as a  whole will fall – sooner or latter.
 
And this is the point isnt it.?  We shouldn’t really be complaining if our opponents present some crappy  piss poor case. Thats utterly absurd. Its very bad psychology in my view   To the contrary it is  actually a great opportunity to demonstrate how much more compelling and powerful is the case for socialism than any  rival. We should be making hay whille the sun shines, capitalising ( if I might use the expression) on the interest shown . Removing ourselves from the debate on the grounds that one cant really  be arsed with having to deal with such arguments becuase they are so offensive ive to the ear and the eye,  is actually pretty defeatist and shortsighted. Its shows a plodding lack of imagination, an inability or unwillingness to use one’s initiative and this I think is part of the problem with WSM at the present time, sad to say.  It is too staid, too conservative,  too concerned  about feeling comfortable within its own four walls that it is constantly losing sight of the bigger picture.  And,  yes I know, me telling you a few hometruths is probably going to mean anything else I suggest is automatically discounted.  But what the hell – I can only speak as I find – and, whatever you might think, I still very much have  your own interests in mind at bottom and thats the truth of it..  The SPGB is still the one political party that stands head and shoulders above any other even though I am not , and cannot be , a member.
 
So thats how I see it then – either you modify the terms of  reference of the WSM forum with all that this entails,  or you consciously develop an effective strategy that involves not simply ignoring the claims of mad markeeters but using them to your advantage in the ways I have suggested. Letting  things just drift as they are is not really on the cards.
I have resolved quite recently that I am going to take my own advice  from here on and ignore the likes of the Donut and Tet  while still obliquely countering their arguments. I suggest this is what others here do too rather thanleave the forum.  The “discipline” that Dave alludes to on the subject of ignoring them relates to them as individuals but it cannot possibly  relate to the basic arguments they represent.  If you ignore that then they already won the argument and you might as well pack up and go home
  

[DJP]

Seems to me the WSM forum is a dead donkey. There’s been more conversaion ABOUT the forum than actual discussion on it. No-one really uses yahoo-groups these days and I wouldn’t be that suprised if yahoo pulls the plug soon.I’ve been having better disussions on various facebook groups these days. If this online forum will catch on time will tell, I may make some changes so users can comment on articles without registering, but as far as the WSM yahoo group is concerned I think we should let it die a death, if it hasn’t died already.

[robbo203]

DJP wrote:

Seems to me the WSM forum is a dead donkey. There’s been more conversaion ABOUT the forum than actual discussion on it. No-one really uses yahoo-groups these days and I wouldn’t be that suprised if yahoo pulls the plug soon.
I’ve been having better disussions on various facebook groups these days. If this online forum will catch on time will tell, I may make some changes so users can comment on articles without registering, but as far as the WSM yahoo group is concerned I think we should let it die a death, if it hasn’t died already.

Dave
 
I think you are mistaken.  Your comments remind me of something that Mark Twain was supposed to have said –  about “reports of my death being premature” or something like that.  I would say  that actually the WSM forum, in terms of the volume of posts and the numbers of contributors, is actually doing rather better than this one. Its not true that “no one really uses yahoo groups these days”.  I am on about 30 such groups and I can assure you that some of them , at any rate, have maintained a consistently high level of posting. Whether Yahoo is about to pull the plug on its groups I do not know. What makes you  think this?
 
In any event, the basic problem that I have talked about in previous posts still remains whatever the particular format or forum you adopt:  how to deal with disruptive individuals like Donut and Tetrapak.  We cant just ignore them – or rather we cant just ignore the ideas they put forward.  I reject the argument completely that in dealing with these ideas one is somehow “distracting attention away from the case for socialism”.  On the contrary., it is through dealing with their arguments that the case for socialism becomes manifest.  If you change the subject to something else all that will happen as that they will use the new  topic of conversation for their own purposes.
 
So you have a simple choice. Do you restrict membership of a forum to only sympathisers and party members or do you allow  hostile critics.  If you do allow the latter , how do you handle their hostile criticism?  Now I have suggested an approach which I think goes some way towards meeting Paul’s suggestion that we ignore the trolls completely – the oblique or indirect approach – but without ignoring the ideas they put forward . Ive started to apply this approach to Tet and Donut becuase I think they are both beyond ther pale. Ive not extended this approach to Bob Howes because I do not think he can be lumped with the former in any way .  He is confused on many points but his heart is often in the right place and he has declared his sympathy for socialism on numerous occasions.   I wish people here would not  jump on the guy in quite the way they do sometimes. It serves no useful purpose.  With Tet and Donut on the other hand we are into a quite different ball game
 
So what are you going to do then? There does not seem any sign of the WSM forum dying a death.  To contrary  it seems quite robust  and healthy  at present.  Would it not be a good idea then to make more use of it but to use it in a more appropriate fashion  along the lines I have suggested above? The nuisance effect of one or two posters would simply be drowned out if  more members actually participated in the forum rather than simply complained about how  those creating as nuisance have come to dominate it and then leave the forum allowing this dominance to increase.  A self fulfilling prophecy if ever there was one.

[Anonymous]

 

DJP wrote:

Seems to me the WSM forum is a dead donkey. There’s been more conversaion ABOUT the forum than actual discussion on it. No-one really uses yahoo-groups these days and I wouldn’t be that suprised if yahoo pulls the plug soon.I’ve been having better disussions on various facebook groups these days. If this online forum will catch on time will tell, I may make some changes so users can comment on articles without registering, but as far as the WSM yahoo group is concerned I think we should let it die a death, if it hasn’t died already.

 

robbo203 wrote:

Dave  ………………

 Actually not Dave

[robbo203]

I see that Adam has copied part of my post above (No.17) on SPOPEN . Not being able to respond on SPOPEN might  I respond here?
The point that I was trying to make is a simple one: If you allow people  like Tet and McDonagh to dominate  the WSM forum by simply not responding to them then the forum is going to become an increasingly unattactive place for visitors and members to be.  Its a vicious circle.  The more you ignore them and pretend they dont exist the WORSE the problem will get. THAT is the lesson of Wicopendebate.
Wicopendebate was a relatively small forum . At its height it had about 60+ members.   So it was much easier for such a forum to become completely dominated by disruptive elements.  The WSM forum is many times the size of Wicopendebate. There are more than enough members to easily deal with the anarcho-capitalist brigade through the sheer weight of  numbers.
You have 2 options as I said.  Either you turn the WSM forum into something like the Worldincommon forum –  which is restricted to people who belong to the non-market anti-statist sector  OR you maintain the WSM forum as a completely open public forum  – like Wicopendebate was.
If you opt for the latter course of action then please accept this as a word of friendly advice.  Ignoring people whose views you strongly object to is not going to work as a strategy.  All that will mean is that they  will  think they have won the argument and this – I can guararantee from bitter experience  – will only  inspire them to ram home their message with even greater determination.  This is basically why Paul’s  suggestion above is misconceinved.
Now there is a halfway house solution which is to deal with the posts of anarcho-capitalist in an oblique or indirect fashion which I touched on earlier. I have started using this approach and I think you will begin to see that it will work in the end. .
With that in mind I urge people here to become active in the WSM  forum and, if they have left, to rejoin it and try out what I have suggested

[robbo203]

This  is frustrating. I read again on SPOPEN today talk of  banning people like McDonagh  from the WSM forum.  I dont think that is going to serve any useful purpose at all.  Simon’s argument on SPOPEN is unconvincing.  If you are going to have an open forum  then you cannot complain if hostile posts appear. The real question is how you deal with them and whether there is a case for an open forum at all.  I still think there is. Wicopendebate failed as an open forum because it is was unable to deal with disruptive posters effectively. So it succumbed to incremental decline.   The WSM forum, being much bigger , has a much better chance of suceeding and indeed of  turning what seems to be an inconvenience and a disadvantage into a distinct advantage
 
Here’s my advice to you guys which you can take or leave as you wish
1) Turn this forum  – the SPGB forum – into something akin to the Worldincommon forum limited to members and sympathisers only.  State this explicitly in your terms of reference like worldincommon has done
2) Maintain the WSM as an open forum. Allow nutjobs like McDonagh to post  but only answer their posts obliquely in the way Ive described earlier so that in no way does it seem that the various outlandish claims they make have been allowed to go uncontested.  The point would be to demonstrate convincingly  that the socialist case trumps over the freemarketeers every time. The onus is not on them to present a more reasonable line of argument  but on us to demonstrate how wholly unreasonable their argument actually is. That will earn the WSM kudos no end – rather than just running away form what is after all a batty argument
The WSM forum is not  “drifting”. People need to get this idea out of their heads. It is taking on a distinct direction and purpose and the level of posting is actually quite good.   Its the input of members themselves that can help ensure that the benefits accrue to the socialism movement  itself.   The opportunity is there –  make use of it!  It just strikes me as being silly and negative complaining about what is happening on the WSM when you are not exploiting the opportubnity to take on your political opponents (this from a party that says it will even debate against the fascist BNP). Try to imagine what the WSM would look like without any opposition. It would be dead as a dodo. 
 
It is controversy – thinking outside of the box – and opposition that sparks interest –  not dull conformiity.  Look, it even works over on SPOPEN! . And talking of which I would be grateful if someone (Adam perhaps ? ) could post this on SPOPEN to stir things up over there even more 
Cheers
 
Robin

[DJP]

What I’d like to see is some usage statistics for the WSM forum, are these obtainable? Since the list is over 10 years old I think a lot of the subscribers will in fact be defunct email addresses, they certainly aren’t saying much. I have the feeling we are worry about conversations that are taking place in an empty room… With regards to the suggestions above #1 We already have this (though it’s only for members) it’s called SPOPEN.

[Ozymandias]

I think the WSM forum should be scrapped. I find it insular and outdated as a mode of communicative technology…it’s a 12 year old system and that’s a mighty long time in terms of the age and development of the Internet. If this new forum is turned into the GLOBAL forum for the entire movement (a la TZM site) that way everyone can come on here. Why divide things? Cheers Ray

[robbo203]

Darren
Well, no not quite – SPOPEN  is for party members only.  WORLDINCOMMON, on the other hand, is for anyone who perceives themselves to be part of the non-market anti-statist sector including, of course, WSM folk. I suppose the equivalent of SPOPEN would be the COMMONER forum which is the internal forum of the World in Common Group and only members of the group are on this particular forum.  Incidentally, WSM members are of course welcome to join the group which is in no sense a political party in competition with the WSM. Some people in WiC are active in other organisations and so it should be. WiC is just an unbrella organisation for the broad non market anti statist sector
 
What I was suggesting as one option – no 1 above – was to change the terms of reference of the WSM forum so that it would be similar to the terms of refrence of  the  WORLDINCOMMON forum.  In other words, non WSMers could continue  on it but not people outside the non market anti statist sector. Thats one option . The other is to keep the WSM forum as a completely open forum. If thats what you want to do then i have suggested some  ways in which to deal with the problem of the anarcho capitalists on the forum
 
Ray
 
As I understand it, the WSM does not belong to just the  SPGB  but all the companion parties.  I would imagine it is a good idea to have some overarching fourm of some sort for the entire WSM. The format may be a bit old fashioned, as you suggest but then I remember some months ago urging that WSM forum should  change over to the format used by REVLEFT which I think is vastly superior in so many ways – not least because the sheer number of   facilities available on it . For example you would have your own personal page which allows all sorts of interactions to happen on a one to one basis.  Also special interest groups can be set as well  which could be quite useful e.g. people interested in , say,  Marxian economics or environmental issues could set up subgroups catering for these interests. Have a look at REVLEFT and see what you think..(Of course, its no longer possible to join REVLEFT but thats another matter)
 
Robin

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