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alanjjohnstone wrote:Oh, we do discriminate…non-socialists are not permitted to join , nor those who hold religious beliefs, racist or sexist ideas. That alone reduces our pool of potential members.
I don't really agree with the part about not accepting those with racist or sexist views. We live in a racist, sexist society. To think that every member can erase over night all prejudices that they have been taught since birth by the simple fact of growing up in such a society is not based in materialism. To say that we don't have any problems in that area just because we are socialists is to say that there is no need to challenge those views within ourselves. The fact is everyone no matter what their gender or ethnic background have certain prejudices about race and gender.
alanjjohnstone wrote:Our membership sadly does not reflect the population. It is mostly white, male and european . We have been described as Anglo-Marxist. We have also been accused of being the aristocracy of labour, even of being autodidacts as if that was a bad thing.I don't think we are a particularly white party. We have to remember that Britain is 88% white unless we were appealing to minority groups the statistical average will probably always reflect that. The 51% of women however is another matter. On the Anglo-Marxism thing I thought that was just because it was the type of socialism that developed within English cultured countries, not that different to how we might say French Marxism for the Guesdists,or Russian Marxism for the Bolsheviks (we might not say that but others have). No different to how Marx spoke of German socialism and French socialism.
mcolome1 wrote:Most of the social sciences taught at the universities are twsited, and they do not present the real social reality, as we have an article which shows that for sociologists there are more than 50 social classess in our society which is not true, because there are only two social classes, and there is not a third one, or there are not middle point between the social classess.I've always made a distinction between social class, the bourgeois class system you mention being taught at universities and the Marxian definition which I've always called socio-economic class. Social class exists in the same way as races exist, in that they are merely subjective categorizations with no way of scientifically separating them from each other. However, they have an existence through ideology, in that we may treat someone differently based on their social class as we may do with race (by we I mean people in general not specifically the party). Social class also has an existence in unique cultural differences and ideology, which would include morality and things like that. So no they don't exist like races don't exist but they do exist in the same way racism exists. Hope that makes some sense.
Would it be fair to say that – whether it be biological or social conditioning – men are generally more aggressive than women.Revolution is an aggressive act.
Ed wrote: I've always made a distinction between social class, the bourgeois class system you mention being taught at universities and the Marxian definition which I've always called socio-economic class. Social class exists in the same way as races exist, in that they are merely subjective categorizations with no way of scientifically separating them from each other. However, they have an existence through ideology, in that we may treat someone differently based on their social class as we may do with race (by we I mean people in general not specifically the party). Social class also has an existence in unique cultural differences and ideology, which would include morality and things like that. So no they don't exist like races don't exist but they do exist in the same way racism exists. Hope that makes some sense.=============================================================================================Mcolome1 commentary: Maybe we are off topic.Racism is like a social diseases, or a learned social behavior, and racism is not a problem that has taken place only between white against other 'races", also white men/women have discriminated against white men, black against black, and yellow against yellow, mixed against mixed, and ethinicity is also a racial conception.The Natives located in the US reservations will only permit as member of their society peoples of 'Indian" ( Indians are from India ) descendentYou will never see in television,or on a governmental meeting, a black Argentinean, but there are thousands of black, Mapuches, and mixed peoples in Argentina. You will never see this type of Argentinean:http://kwekudee-tripdownmemorylane.blogspot.com/2012/10/african-descendants-in-argentina-afro.htmlThey have been removed from the history books, as well, the Araucans peoples ( Mapuches ) have been removed from their historyIn Mexico black peoples have been removed from history, and in television and specially in the soap operas black women are presented as ignorants, witch, who do not know how to talk, and they only can be used as servants, even more Afro-Cuban music is not very popular in Mexico due to racism, and nationalism. You will never see this reality on the Mexican television:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wm97d4Nid-oIn the Dominican Republic black women from Haiti are treated like trash because they are black, and most of the population in the Dom Rep is compossed of black peoples, or peoples mixed with European, black and Tainos, or Black and Tainos. Most Dominican do not the real history, even the name of the country was impossed by Europeans, Before 1959 in Cuba the discrimination against black was similar to the conditions that existed in the South in the USA.In Puerto Rico the racism against Dominican is widely spread in the island, and the government had to pass a law to avoid a form of slavery that existed among the workers from the Dominican Republic, and the denunciation was made by 'Amnistia Iternacional" Women have been badly treated through history in different society, that is reason why I believe that Engels copied in a dogmatic and uncritical way the finding of Lewis Morgan, because the conditions that he saw only took place in the society of the North American indians.Black slavery started because the chief of the African tribes started to sell slaves to the Muslim and they started the trade which was passed to Holland, and slavery among black and Indian was started immediately,I do not believe in the chronicles of Padres de Las Casas who said that a stronger race was replaced by a weaker race, there is nothing that can be called a weaker or stronger race, in reality it was easier for the Spanish to slave the blacks because they did not know the territory, and they were separated from the family and their society, and the Tainos knew the local conditions, the mountains, and the forestDue to the propagation of slavery, and the slave mentality ( Franz Fannon called it the Colonized mind ) many peoples were forced to hate their colors of their skins, and certain government brought European in order to make what they called a 'better race", and others with light skins they like to be called as whitehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czYS_LoSTDM In some places in LA Indian is considered as a color of the skin, and it is more acceptable than saying blacksIt is like Ed wrote in another message, it is very difficult to remove from one day to another all the twisted behaviors that we have learned, we are going to find socialists which are racists and sexists, I have encountered peoples from others countries who do not want to be a member of the Socialist Party because they think that it is an Euro-centrist organization, and they want to form their own type of localized socialism which in some way it is also a nationalist point of view. It was the point of view of Mariategui, but he was a Leninist which in essence is Russian nationalismSocialism-communism is not a social theory of Europeans, Asian, Americans, Middle Easterner, etc, etc, it is a conception born within the working class, ( Engels had the honesty of making that recognition ) and it is the only social theory which will provide real freedom and liberation to mankind, despite their races, colour of their skins, nationalities, religions, cultural background, and languagesRacism is an irrational social disease. Most Americans hate Indians and blacks and they are called lazy peoples, the thing is that, the Natives American they were in that part of the earth for thousands of years before the arrival of the Europeans, they worked the land, they developed their own society, and then they were called land thieves, who is the thief in this case.? The blacks were forced to emigrate, they were chained like animals, they worked the lands and mines for free for almost 400 hundred and then they were also considered as lazy peoples.The Mexican lived for many years in the West and South West, of the North American continent, they also worked the land, their lands were stolen, expropiated, and now they are considered as illegal and foreign, and they work for a misery salary and they are considered as lazy people too.It is going to take time to eliminate that disease from the minds of the peoples, therefore, we are going to have racist and sexist peoples for a long period of time within the working class movement
I accept most of what you say , Ed, particularly in regards to the phrase Anglo Marxism. Also, yes our members are human with many of our fellow workers weaknesses but the terms of sexism , racism should be in a concrete political context. Members know better than to exhibit these traits and endeavour to correct them, particularly when it is pointed out. If they are expressed openly and in public then i would expect charges to be brought against that member for actions detrimental. The Socialist Studies group has been mentioned and since i was not intimately acquaintred with them, it has been pointed out to me that it included homophiles and a certain wife-beater. We are not the morality police and cannot act as such but conduct unbecoming of a member should raise other members concerns. Certainly if they at the pre-membership stage show they hold such views then i consider that membership would be withheld eg Hrogarth on another thread here tried to join but continued to advocate his tribal racialist theory or whatsishisname's mysogynist views on the other WSM forum some time back. It is not an easy issue. I had hoped my e-mail would be taken to understand that. Take nationalism. Too easy for some members to be sympathetic to the national football side or a sports personal, basing that preference on geography. At one conference, i plead guilty, myself and an a Irish member displayed the prejudice of supporting France against England in the pub to the anger of others- our behaviour little different from the England fans "patriotism" Regard to Mcolme, i have witnessed the issue of lighter and darker skinned discrimation personally in African and Asia countries. Although it may appear racial its roots are in class, lighter skin = non- worker so they use skin lighteners as aspiration tools . I'm also guessing that the same can be said in Mexico – lighter skin is associated with the Spanish Conquisador ruling class and not the peons.
alanjjohnstone wrote:Regard to Mcolme, i have witnessed the issue of lighter and darker skinned discrimation personally in African and Asia countries. Although it may appear racial its roots are in class, lighter skin = non- worker so they use skin lighteners as aspiration tools . I'm also guessing that the same can be said in Mexico – lighter skin is associated with the Spanish Conquisador ruling class and not the peons.We all know that racism of all colors has a class nature. It was not only propagated by the 'Conquistadores", it has also been propagated by the national ruling class of each one of those countries, therefore, racism, nationalism, patriotism, and ethnicism they are part of the prevailing ideology of the ruling class. The other issue is that most of the so called Communist Parties of those countries they also support those social diseases
alanjjohnstone wrote:The Socialist Studies group has been mentioned and since i was not intimately acquaintred with them, it has been pointed out to me that it included homophiles and a certain wife-beater. We are not the morality police and cannot act as such but conduct unbecoming of a member should raise other members concerns.Hi Alan,I was wondering if these 'homophobes' and 'wife beaters' were/are ex-members of the SPGB?. Also could they be rumours as it would be unfair to judge someone and refuse their application on rumour alone. Were they convicted? Self Confessed?
As you know, their expulsions for rule breaking was a little acrimonious with many accusations, even some in Socialist Studies claiming a present member of the Party is a MI5 infiltrator. i was not a member at this time so i am indeed spreading third-party unproved gossip about Socialist Studies.
I take for granted my relative lack of prejudice and forget most others are not like me/us and am surprised when it pops up. Course, I' m not typical anything. No one's marketing demographic.Been thinking of the question tho. I can't do it justice, but one aspect most women would not be as involved in is the, pardon the phrase, "pissing contest". The war and aggression too, in general. Though when I read Madeleine Albrights' autobiography , scary. I met a woman when involved with the democrats, she sincerely wanted the world ruled only by women. She scared me too.Belaboring the point too. We would have dropped that dialectic thread, DAAAAYYS ago.Not to totally bash you, I'm so impressed by your compassion, courage, persistence, fortitude, intelligence, strength, critical thinking, patience with my lack of it.
Not to totally bash you, I'm so impressed by your compassion, courage, persistence, fortitude, intelligence, strength, critical thinking, patience with my lack of it.Not to totally bash you, I'm so impressed by your compassion, courage, persistence, fortitude, intelligence, strength, critical thinking, patience with my lack of it. We are just putty in your hands now. ;-0
admice wrote:I take for granted my relative lack of prejudice and forget most others are not like me/us and am surprised when it pops up. Course, I' m not typical anything. No one's marketing demographic.Been thinking of the question tho. I can't do it justice, but one aspect most women would not be as involved in is the, pardon the phrase, "pissing contest". The war and aggression too, in general. Though when I read Madeleine Albrights' autobiography , scary. I met a woman when involved with the democrats, she sincerely wanted the world ruled only by women. She scared me too.Belaboring the point too. We would have dropped that dialectic thread, DAAAAYYS ago.Not to totally bash you, I'm so impressed by your compassion, courage, persistence, fortitude, intelligence, strength, critical thinking, patience with my lack of it.We are just a group of human beings, located or disseminated in different parts of the world, with a variety of cultural and linguistic backgrounds, separated by legal and false fences called nation-states, with the same problems like any others human beings, who grew up, and live in the capitalist society,( the system of profits and wage slavery ) and came to the conclusion that this society is not beneficial for the vast majority of the human being,( it is also anti-natural ) and have detached themselves mentality with this society, and its ideology, and wish and have the desires to build or construct a new society totally different to this one, but we also recognize that we can not do that without the desires of the vast majority of the others human being of the whole world, therefore, we need more people like you.The WSM is just a school of socialism, ( for me, it is the best University of sociology, economics, political sciences, and anthropology ) and our main objective is to propagate and disseminate the socialist theory, we do not support any conspiracies theories like the left, we want our members to be alive, we do not want them to be martyrs, to kill others human beings, or to kill themselves, and we do not want them to be beaten up by the aggressive forces of the state With dialectic we did, or we have done something similar to what Marx and Engels did with their book The German Ideology: We have studied it, we have analyzed it, we have written about it, and we have rejected it, ( they wanted the rats to take care of their manuscripts ) but we have left the door open for further discussions.What we need is a theory of socialism which will conduct to us to our real liberation, we do not want to put more cosmetic powder in the face of this ugly economical systemWe just wanted to clear our minds. and to prove to others peoples that we can not be so dogmatic, narrow minded, arrogant, and that there are others peoples who also have their opinions about the same subject matter, and who have also arrived to a final conclusion, not now, but several years agoSome feminist have a wrong conception about this society and its problems, they think that the solution strive in the confrontation between men and women, and that the causes of the problems are men only, they do not have a class vision about this society, that is one of the major problems of the bourgeois feminist movement, the inequality among human being started away before the emerge of this society http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/socialist-standard/2010s/2013/no-1311-november-2013/how-did-social-inequality-arise
"Feminists obviously attract more female members than male, but also environmental groups and animal rights groups attract a more proportionate composition (reflective of current society) than other political groups." O, I'm gonna leave you guys and go join the fuzzy kitties group.
admice wrote:"Feminists obviously attract more female members than male, but also environmental groups and animal rights groups attract a more proportionate composition (reflective of current society) than other political groups." O, I'm gonna leave you guys and go join the fuzzy kitties group.Probably that is not completely true because religion and the Vatican attract a more diversified varieties of peoples than any other groups
I read somewhere, unsure if reliable, but hope so, that 50% of women leave the Catholic church. I'm sure many others are 'member's' in name only. This is represented in my own experience meeting various women and relatives, tho I tend to join atheist/humanist groups so see a disproportionate amount. What religions are supposedly attracting diverse peoples? Last I read there was an uptick in religiosity in Europe attributed to immigration, but that's all I've heard. I read the Catholics were heavy in Haiti, proseletyzing by their good works again. I told the Humanists we should copy the Catholic model to grow, but they said it wasn't ethical. Sheesh, no fun.
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