Why would membership of the SPGB be refused
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As a motherfucking Marxist I don't consider granting forgiveness or accepting apologies to be within my remit. No apology wanted or needed.
Jonathan Chambers wrote:As a motherfucking Marxist I don't consider granting forgiveness or accepting apologies to be within my remit. No apology wanted or needed.Leaves you in a difficult postion – in relation to the topic of this thread – voting against all workers who have previously supported reformism. Unless you can forgive their previous treacherous behaviour.
Those motherfuckers stole my Yamaha XJ650 twenty years ago. And I lost a job and a wife because of it. Don't compare me to those motherfuckers, comrade! But we need to discuss this 'forgiveness' bollocks…
Vin Maratty wrote:Jonathan Chambers wrote:As a motherfucking Marxist I don't consider granting forgiveness or accepting apologies to be within my remit. No apology wanted or needed.Leaves you in a difficult postion – in relation to the topic of this thread – voting against all workers who have previously supported reformism. Unless you can forgive their previous treacherous behaviour.
Let's see…My position doesn't feel difficult at all. But you think I'm in a difficult position in relation to the topic of this thread. Why would membership be refused? Do you really think that I'd vote against admitting someone to the party who'd realised the errors in their thinking and finally come to understand that socialism is the answer to working class problems because they were once a member of a reformist organisation? Of course I wouldn't.But where does 'forgiveness' come into that? As a scientific materialist I strive to understand the reasons why people behave in the ways that they do. I'm not interested in moral pronouncements, and 'forgiveness' is predicated upon a moral stance. There's a very unhealthy tendency in the party right now and it stems from talk about morality. Our case works fine without morality. We have no need of that hypothesis.
Hi Johnny, I to have had a bad xp with theft from, or to do with, a motorbike. Years ago, my Suzie GT 750 was parked outside of my sitting room window. During one night, all of the cables etc, etc, were cut away and swiped. Do not know whether it was vandalism, theft, or an act against myself. But in the great scheme of things, hey, what the hey. It's life!Do not think VM was comparing you to anyone, let alone transgressors against yourself, who VM would have no personal knowledge of.As to discussing this, "forgiveness bollocks", when there is nothing to "forgive", forgiveness is unnecessary. Whether VM agrees or not, I have nothing to be forgiven for. Not even bad thoughts re those who messed up me ride. Stevie C.
alanjjohnstone wrote:Aren't 50cc mopeds good enough for socialists?Your taking about ordinary socialists, Alan, not 'motherfucking socialists'.
steve colborn wrote:As to discussing this, "forgiveness bollocks", when there is nothing to "forgive", forgiveness is unnecessary. Whether VM agrees or not, I have nothing to be forgiven for. Not even bad thoughts re those who messed up me ride. Stevie C.ditto.I am not suggesting there has been any 'questionable behaviour'. Your contribution to the movement has been outstanding.But even if there was 'questionable behaviour' , it has past.Membership of a reformist organisation would be considered action detrimental to the SPGB but the party is willing to overlook such an applicant's previous 'questionable behaviour'
Jonathan Chambers wrote:But where does 'forgiveness' come into that? As a scientific materialist I strive to understand the reasons why people behave in the ways that they do. I'm not interested in moral pronouncements, and 'forgiveness' is predicated upon a moral stance. There's a very unhealthy tendency in the party right now and it stems from talk about morality. Our case works fine without morality. We have no need of that hypothesis.I agree with you that the case for socialism is not a moral one, in fact I don't know what 'moral' means, but I was not thinking of forgiveness in a moral or religious sense. I disagree that forgivenss is predicated upon a moral stance. The capitalist state clears your criminal record after so many years, and past offences cannot be used against you. I am sorry to hear about the theft of….. oops nearly drifted into 'moral' crap
steve colborn wrote:Why would membership of the SPGB be refusedAny thoughts people?Discussing 'internal party matters' on socialist forum?
So now an "indication of" is added to the reasons to refuse membership of the SPGB. No reference as to whether proof needs to be given, or appeal processes!Moreover, is the applicants "good contribution" to our case and activity to given equal weight, or more, if their contribution to the case, was "more beneficial", than their so-called "bad behaviour" was un- beneficial?Finally, if "past behaviour" is to be taken into account, are current members behaviour to be delved into? The SPGB could be filled with all kinds of folk, from serial shop-lifters to ballot riggers!Stevie C.
Rejection of an applicant should not be secret. There should be clear reasons give.I think we all need to be candid about this: Our form As are being rejected because we challenged party decisions on its forums. Although a lot of members found this uncomfortable, a charge of action detrimental would fail.There does seem to be a consensus amongst active members that 'internal party matters' should not be thrashed out in public on this forum. In this sense the party has been left behind by other parties including the SWP. Indeed the party discussed the 'internal party matters' of the SWP on this forum but refuses to discuss its own.Most active members feel that it is you and I at fault for doing this (indeed a member has indicated that if I raise the matter again it will be 'another nail in my coffin') but looking from the outside-in it gives a very bad impression. Indeed, it has been suggested to me that if the party had control of the state at this time then you and I would have been taken out at dawn and shot.
steve colborn wrote:So now an "indication of" is added to the reasons to refuse membership of the SPGB. No reference as to whether proof needs to be given, or appeal processes!Moreover, is the applicants "good contribution" to our case and activity to given equal weight, or more, if their contribution to the case, was "more beneficial", than their so-called "bad behaviour" was un- beneficial?Finally, if "past behaviour" is to be taken into account, are current members behaviour to be delved into? The SPGB could be filled with all kinds of folk, from serial shop-lifters to ballot riggers!Stevie C.By requesting contributions from branches it gives the impression that the EC is considering changing the position of the party by rejecting applications from members on the grounds of previous behaviour within the party. (I am not suggesting there has been 'previous behaviour' but even if there had been) A simple perusal of previous EC decisions on the matter indicates that the opinions of branches should not be rquired:This resolution was carried on the 31st March 2007:"Therefore, in the case of ex-members rejoining the Party, a simple declaration that they still hold to the Party's political views should be sufficient unless there is significant evidence that their political views no longer coincide with the Party's"By refusing our applications the EC has changed policy
It seems that at least two branches have informed the EC that – in essense – my Form A ( and Steve's) should be rejected. It seems to be a strange way to run a party that claims to be democratic. The EC first rejects my Form A without giving me a reason. It then asks branches if they believe the EC should have the right to deny membership of the world socialist movement in general. Even if some branches directly supported the EC's refusal to allow me back into the world socialist movement – This would still be a form of democracy I am not familiar with!
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